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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Joat42   » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:49 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
Dilandu wrote:Er, one problem: Proctor is treated as a "fallen archangel" in CoGA doctrine. Which means, he was a known Shain-Wei supporter, not just suspected one.

Why would that be a problem? It's only a problem if you are trying to fit him into a narrative that's not consistent with what we know. AFAIK, there's no textev of him being at the enclave when it was bombarded.

Bluesqueak wrote:I think the problem is that if he was known to be a Shan-Wei supporter before the destruction of Alexandria, Langhorne would never have let both Pei and Proctor into an Administrative Council meeting. Not after Alexandria's destruction.

"Hi guys, how's it going? Really sorry about the murder of your ex-wife and good friend..."

Frankly, a vaguely sane Langhorne wouldn't have let Commodore Pei near him, which is why I wonder if Person 2 was a) someone trusted by Langhorne and b) made the appointment.

True, but perhaps the other person was someone who belonged but wasn't at the enclave when it was bombarded and Langhorne had Pei escort him to the meeting.
Bluesqueak wrote:Later thought: suppose Langhorne DID want a meeting with Commodore Pei - to say 'It wasn't me, I didn't do it?' And then either Pei blew things up before Langhorne had a chance to explain - or somebody else blew them both up. Knowing they could blame it on Pei.

It is firmly established in OAR that it was Pei that blew them up. Later in the books the term "vest pocket nuke" is bandied around after Nimue/Merlin describes Pei actions to the inner circle.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:18 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:
Frankly, a vaguely sane Langhorne wouldn't have let Commodore Pei near him, which is why I wonder if Person 2 was a) someone trusted by Langhorne and b) made the appointment.

Later thought: suppose Langhorne DID want a meeting with Commodore Pei - to say 'It wasn't me, I didn't do it?' And then either Pei blew things up before Langhorne had a chance to explain - or somebody else blew them both up. Knowing they could blame it on Pei.


Actually, I was thinking the same. Especially considering that Chihiro for some reason was NOT presented. Langhorne was megalomaniac, but wasn't insane (and he was very, very smart).
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:20 pm

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Joat42 wrote:It is firmly established in OAR that it was Pei that blew them up. Later in the books the term "vest pocket nuke" is bandied around after Nimue/Merlin describes Pei actions to the inner circle.


Actually, it wasn't. Nimue ASSUMED, that it was the case. But it is possible, that the detonation actually have outside source, and was not triggered by Pei.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:20 am

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Dilandu wrote:
Joat42 wrote:It is firmly established in OAR that it was Pei that blew them up. Later in the books the term "vest pocket nuke" is bandied around after Nimue/Merlin describes Pei actions to the inner circle.


Actually, it wasn't. Nimue ASSUMED, that it was the case. But it is possible, that the detonation actually have outside source, and was not triggered by Pei.


True, however, in his last message, Pei Kau-young said that there would be no survivors (including himself). Thus, he had planned to do something rather energetic.
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Joat42   » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:24 am

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Dilandu wrote:
Joat42 wrote:It is firmly established in OAR that it was Pei that blew them up. Later in the books the term "vest pocket nuke" is bandied around after Nimue/Merlin describes Pei actions to the inner circle.


Actually, it wasn't. Nimue ASSUMED, that it was the case. But it is possible, that the detonation actually have outside source, and was not triggered by Pei.

So why does Nimue/Merlin talk about Pei using a vest pocket nuke as if it was a fact in the later books? They don't say "we think Pei used..." anywhere, it's always described as "Pei used".

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:40 am

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Joat42 wrote:So why does Nimue/Merlin talk about Pei using a vest pocket nuke as if it was a fact in the later books? They don't say "we think Pei used..." anywhere, it's always described as "Pei used".


Because initially Nimue have no reasons to doubt the initial assumption. She did not knew about the War Against The Fallen, and the doubts about Langhorne's role in destruction of Alexandria. She did not assume that both Langhorne and Pei may be played by someone else.
Last edited by Dilandu on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bluesqueak   » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:23 am

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Joat42 wrote:
Dilandu wrote:
Actually, it wasn't. Nimue ASSUMED, that it was the case. But it is possible, that the detonation actually have outside source, and was not triggered by Pei.


True, however, in his last message, Pei Kau-young said that there would be no survivors (including himself). Thus, he had planned to do something rather energetic.


Yup, but he doesn't say he's planning to nuke the place. "Undisclosed military hardware" is the description. As Dilandu says, Nimue made a perfectly reasonable chain-of-logic assumption.

The last message Commodore Pei gives her is that he has undisclosed military hardware, that he's got a meeting with Langhorne's administrative council, and there aren't going to be any survivors. Next up, Langhorne's Council (and Pei Kau-Yung) are killed in a nuclear explosion. It's perfectly reasonable to conclude that the undisclosed hardware was a vest-pocket nuke, and the explosion was set off by Pei Kau-Yung.

On the other hand, if Chihiro bombed Shan Wei and Alexandria without orders, or exceeded his orders, he might find Langhorne and Bedard's death very convenient. And Pei Kau-Yung a perfect fall-guy - even if he didn't know about the 'undisclosed' hardware, having your ex-wife murdered is a very powerful motive.

A nuclear explosion is quite some overkill. It may be that it was the only undisclosed hardware Pei Kau-Yung had, but on the other hand, a nuke is certainly going to get rid of any inconvenient evidence (possibly along with half the base).

And the more you think about it, why on earth would Langhorne meet with Commodore Pei? I'm wondering more and more if this was a meeting to say 'This wasn't me, we need to work together against the real murderer of Shan Wei.'
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:53 am

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Dilandu wrote:
Actually, it wasn't. Nimue ASSUMED, that it was the case. But it is possible, that the detonation actually have outside source, and was not triggered by Pei.
Joat42 wrote:
True, however, in his last message, Pei Kau-young said that there would be no survivors (including himself). Thus, he had planned to do something rather energetic.
Bluesqueak wrote:
Yup, but he doesn't say he's planning to nuke the place. "Undisclosed military hardware" is the description. As Dilandu says, Nimue made a perfectly reasonable chain-of-logic assumption.

The last message Commodore Pei gives her is that he has undisclosed military hardware, that he's got a meeting with Langhorne's administrative council, and there aren't going to be any survivors. Next up, Langhorne's Council (and Pei Kau-Yung) are killed in a nuclear explosion. It's perfectly reasonable to conclude that the undisclosed hardware was a vest-pocket nuke, and the explosion was set off by Pei Kau-Yung.

On the other hand, if Chihiro bombed Shan Wei and Alexandria without orders, or exceeded his orders, he might find Langhorne and Bedard's death very convenient. And Pei Kau-Yung a perfect fall-guy - even if he didn't know about the 'undisclosed' hardware, having your ex-wife murdered is a very powerful motive.

A nuclear explosion is quite some overkill. It may be that it was the only undisclosed hardware Pei Kau-Yung had, but on the other hand, a nuke is certainly going to get rid of any inconvenient evidence (possibly along with half the base).

And the more you think about it, why on earth would Langhorne meet with Commodore Pei? I'm wondering more and more if this was a meeting to say 'This wasn't me, we need to work together against the real murderer of Shan Wei.'

The latter scenario is very interesting. Let's assume Schueler was the other person who knew about Nimue and was scheduled to attend that meeting. If he wasn't there but did know that in the meeting Langhorne persuaded Pei that he didn't order the KEW strike, that puts him in an interesting moral predicament. I can see Schueler being responsible for something central to the question of who ordered the strike being commed in to the discussion. Given the Inquisition's role in the CoGA, Schueler might have been the Command Staff head of communications. That morphs easily into intel once hostilities break out. So, Schueler didn't know who did it, but was convinced Langhorne didn't.

So if Schueler really did know about Nimue and Langhorne didn't order the strike, he could have the motive to initiate a millennia long plan to reveal the Truth. The biggest question with this scenario is why Schueler was so staunchly against the "demons". I suspect that he was a firm believer in maintaining chain of command until he could prove who ordered the strike. Khody's discovery pretty much confirms Chihiro's guilt. Then Schueler begins his long term plans with Nimue in mind.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bluesqueak   » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:51 am

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PeterZ wrote:The latter scenario is very interesting. Let's assume Schueler was the other person who knew about Nimue and was scheduled to attend that meeting. If he wasn't there but did know that in the meeting Langhorne persuaded Pei that he didn't order the KEW strike, that puts him in an interesting moral predicament. I can see Schueler being responsible for something central to the question of who ordered the strike being commed in to the discussion. Given the Inquisition's role in the CoGA, Schueler might have been the Command Staff head of communications. That morphs easily into intel once hostilities break out. So, Schueler didn't know who did it, but was convinced Langhorne didn't.

So if Schueler really did know about Nimue and Langhorne didn't order the strike, he could have the motive to initiate a millennia long plan to reveal the Truth. The biggest question with this scenario is why Schueler was so staunchly against the "demons". I suspect that he was a firm believer in maintaining chain of command until he could prove who ordered the strike. Khody's discovery pretty much confirms Chihiro's guilt. Then Schueler begins his long term plans with Nimue in mind.


I think the explanation of why Schueler was so staunchly against 'demons' may be that he 'turned' when Khody was murdered. Possibly, until then, he'd bought the 'Pei Kau-Yung Did It' explanation, but found out that Khody had been killed before being able to tell him something - and realised both sets of deaths were just too convenient for Chihiro.

Remember, the Order of St Jerneau didn't find out about Nimue directly. The secret leaked; Jerry Knowles overheard or found out something he shouldn't. So Schueler doesn't have to have been Person No. 2. He could have found out (if he did) from Person No. 2. He might not know about Nimue - just that there's a PICA hidden away.

Couple of things that occur to me. One - when Nynian is explaining to Merlin how she spotted him, she tells him that the original Abbess knew both Chihiro and Schueler. Then she changes it to 'spoke to'. As if she realised the Abbess didn't really know one of them at all ... or as if she realised she'd just given a bit too much away about just how well the Abbess knew Schueler and Chihiro.

Then when she tells Merlin how she realised he was a seijin, she says
One of you who could change not just his outward appearance but who he actually was as easily as a mask lizard changes color in a flowerbed ... and that, my friend, was the final truth you truly were a seijin.


But Khody couldn't do that. It needs a PICA to be able to change appearance like a mask. There's no hint in what we're told of the diaries that Khody ever changed appearance.

Looking at that section, it's like Nynian had been given a verbal description of a PICA, one suitable for someone who doesn't understand tech. And given the way the Order of St Khody promptly swing behind the Seijins, it's definitely as if they've been primed to support the Seijin (description passed on by word of mouth) when they reappear. Whatever side they're on...
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:32 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:
But Khody couldn't do that. It needs a PICA to be able to change appearance like a mask. There's no hint in what we're told of the diaries that Khody ever changed appearance.

Looking at that section, it's like Nynian had been given a verbal description of a PICA, one suitable for someone who doesn't understand tech. And given the way the Order of St Khody promptly swing behind the Seijins, it's definitely as if they've been primed to support the Seijin (description passed on by word of mouth) when they reappear. Whatever side they're on...


Actually... It's a very interesting observation! The one that I, must admit, missed completely.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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