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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bluesqueak   » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:19 am

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PeterZ wrote:I would add, Bluesqueak, that what the SSK has told the IC about their motives seems incomplete. There has to be more that drives them besides knowing Khody was defamed by the CoGA. That an archangel LIED about essential truths in the Writ. This last was just alluded to, but that has the potential to be devastating to Safehold. If archangels believed to not have fallen can lie, the how valid is the Writ?

That sort of conclusion is a big step away from being a caretaker for a defamed fallen hero. Yet that is much more consistent with what the SSK has become now.


Yes, I think the sleight of hand that stops the reader spotting that is that the Sisterhood believe in God and the Proscriptions. But then, so did the Wysynns, and they seem to have been Schueler's arrow.

So now I'm wondering if RFC has done a mirror image and both Shan Wei and Schueler had two arrows to their bow. After all they'd gone through, they'd be really keen on back ups for the back ups. The Wysynns to try and keep the Church and Inqiuisition on track. That would be why Nynian 'came out of hiding' to support them - and need-to-know meant she gave Merlin a 'cover story' to explain it. It wasn't a personal decision at all; it's the mission plan for the Sisterhood.

The job of the Sisterhood is to be the sword that will destroy ... at least the Inqiuisition, if they become the horror they did become. And once the Inquisition is destroyed, to follow instructions that will reveal Schueler's New Testament?

Hmmm...
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:44 am

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PeterZ wrote:I would add, Bluesqueak, that what the SSK has told the IC about their motives seems incomplete. There has to be more that drives them besides knowing Khody was defamed by the CoGA. That an archangel LIED about essential truths in the Writ. This last was just alluded to, but that has the potential to be devastating to Safehold. If archangels believed to not have fallen can lie, the how valid is the Writ?

That sort of conclusion is a big step away from being a caretaker for a defamed fallen hero. Yet that is much more consistent with what the SSK has become now.
Bluesqueak wrote:
Yes, I think the sleight of hand that stops the reader spotting that is that the Sisterhood believe in God and the Proscriptions. But then, so did the Wysynns, and they seem to have been Schueler's arrow.

So now I'm wondering if RFC has done a mirror image and both Shan Wei and Schueler had two arrows to their bow. After all they'd gone through, they'd be really keen on back ups for the back ups. The Wysynns to try and keep the Church and Inqiuisition on track. That would be why Nynian 'came out of hiding' to support them - and need-to-know meant she gave Merlin a 'cover story' to explain it. It wasn't a personal decision at all; it's the mission plan for the Sisterhood.

The job of the Sisterhood is to be the sword that will destroy ... at least the Inqiuisition, if they become the horror they did become. And once the Inquisition is destroyed, to follow instructions that will reveal Schueler's New Testament?

Hmmm...

That"s a much more acceptable rationale behind the Visitation than the Nahrmahn Plan. That's much more consistent with all the characters, including the SSK & Helm Cleaver members we have met.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Julia Minor   » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:31 pm

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Louis R wrote: AFAICR there's no evidence that Helm Cleaver was created as a response to Clyntahn's rise to power, but there's no evidence whatsoever that it wasn't, either, and no need to assume it goes back generations. The expertise employed in it's creation is the expertise that has kept the SSK alive and the Shrine of St Khody intact.


As I recall, it's stated in AST that one of the guards (excuse me, "gardeners") at St. Kahrmyncetah's Abbey was a Helm Cleaver operative who had to be pulled out of Zion before the Inquisition could grab him, and his active-duty period was decades before the time of the novel.

If that memory is correct, that means Helm Cleaver was around and active, if not recognized as an organized group by the Inquisition, well before the novels start.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:39 pm

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ssl4000g wrote:[ I felt too, from the textev, that the Command Staff never interacted with the regular folk, the lesser angels did. That does make on wonder how the Wyllsyn family got the Key though, which does give some credence to your final about the SSK's goals and Schueler's possible involvement. The Visitation being the SSK's version of acknowledging the Key?

W

Actually from the textev, Schueler was the direct ancestor of Paiter, which means that the command staff did interact with the regular folk.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bluesqueak   » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:27 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
ssl4000g wrote:[ I felt too, from the textev, that the Command Staff never interacted with the regular folk, the lesser angels did. That does make on wonder how the Wyllsyn family got the Key though, which does give some credence to your final about the SSK's goals and Schueler's possible involvement. The Visitation being the SSK's version of acknowledging the Key?

W

Actually from the textev, Schueler was the direct ancestor of Paiter, which means that the command staff did interact with the regular folk.


Not necessarily. Schueler could have had an adult child or grandchild who was one of the memory-altered colonists. The interaction could have been limited to giving the Key, the rumours of descent resulting from residual memories that the 'Archangel' the colonist had spoken to was 'Dad' (or 'Grandad')

Textev has already established that the colonists' memories weren't completely wiped.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by isaac_newton   » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:35 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:SNIP
Actually from the textev, Schueler was the direct ancestor of Paiter, which means that the command staff did interact with the regular folk.


Not necessarily. Schueler could have had an adult child or grandchild who was one of the memory-altered colonists. The interaction could have been limited to giving the Key, the rumours of descent resulting from residual memories that the 'Archangel' the colonist had spoken to was 'Dad' (or 'Grandad')

Textev has already established that the colonists' memories weren't completely wiped.



Interesting thought... however, it still rather throws a shade over the Archangels self defined standing as near divine beings.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Magistos   » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:14 am

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quote="Bluesqueak"]
fallsfromtrees wrote:SNIP

Not necessarily. Schueler could have had an adult child or grandchild who was one of the memory-altered colonists. The interaction could have been limited to giving the Key, the rumours of descent resulting from residual memories that the 'Archangel' the colonist had spoken to was 'Dad' (or 'Grandad')

Textev has already established that the colonists' memories weren't completely wiped.



Interesting thought... however, it still rather throws a shade over the Archangels self defined standing as near divine beings.[/quote]


If this is the case, speaking as a parent it also, to me, throws a new level of horror in that they could (theoretically) do something like that to their own kids. I mean, yes, it is already a horror show what they did to the colonists' memories and personalities, but to your own family.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bluesqueak   » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:51 pm

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Magistos wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:

Interesting thought... however, it still rather throws a shade over the Archangels self defined standing as near divine beings.



If this is the case, speaking as a parent it also, to me, throws a new level of horror in that they could (theoretically) do something like that to their own kids. I mean, yes, it is already a horror show what they did to the colonists' memories and personalities, but to your own family.


Well, the question I'd ask is: are the Wylsynns called 'Wylsynn' because that's their name? That is, they're the descendants of Schueler's daughter. Or are the Wylsynns called that because they couldn't be called Schueler, because Bedard knew Schueler was going to be a 'holy' name?

If you think about it, it's a teeny bit odd that (unless the reference has whizzed past me) nobody on Safehold seems to have the surname of any of the archangels. There were no other Sullivans in the colony? Have we met a Rodriguez?

And for Magistos: yes, it's a horror story. I think you could manage it if you thought it was the only way of saving your kid's life, and their kids, and their kids - and that they'd never know what you did to them.

But what if Schuler had a Duchairn moment simply because Cody Cortazar came to him and showed that he remembered ... to Schueler's complete horror, because that meant his child/grandchild might also remember?
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Julia Minor   » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:47 am

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WeberFan wrote:
Or maybe there's another group that we just haven't been introduced to yet.

And maybe, just maybe, this fifth column has access to a limited tech base of Federation Tech.


Back when Paityr was inducted into the IC, he mentioned that his father and uncle were afraid someone outside the Wylsynn family not only knew the Stone was still in existence, but knew about the Key. That might have just been paranoia, but it could also be an early hint of an additional player in the game.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:36 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:
But what if Schuler had a Duchairn moment simply because Cody Cortazar came to him and showed that he remembered ... to Schueler's complete horror, because that meant his child/grandchild might also remember?


Doubt that. Cody Cortazar was able to remember anything only because his memory was meddled with when he was transformed into a Seijin. Without such tampering, it would not be possible.
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- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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