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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:19 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:
PlaysWithBees wrote:One thing to keep in mind with all this speculation about the SSK working with Schueler is the little fact that the Mother Superior of SSK is married to one Merlin, is a member if the IC, and was blindsided by the truth when introduced to it. If she had ANY knowledge about a Schueler return/reveal/exposé, I am sure she would have given him a heads up since they would be working towards similar and allied purposes.


My reading of Nynian is that she understands 'need to know' in her very bones. Look at the way she kept the evidence of the Sisters of St Khody secret from the Circle, even when she was using the resources of the Sisters to rescue Circle wives and children.

If she thinks Merlin doesn't have need-to-know, or may need to truthfully say he didn't know, she wouldn't tell him. Husband or not.


Beat me to it. This may be a case of the SSK believing the visitation was necessary but recognizing the IC was morally committed to NOT falsifying such a thing.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:10 am

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I just had a different thunk regarding Khody, Schueler and the “Visitation”. It’s very much a speculative “what if” scenario, but still...

WHAT IF, Khody’s helmet wasn’t just a head case. What if, perhaps, it also contained a recording unit built in between the layers.

This could be for mission documentation, pre-mission briefing, post mission debriefing, etc. especially if it had a transceiver built in. A daily ritual of meditation in full armor could cover the needed time for making a personality update.

And what if that copy is still stored in the helmet, or backed up in the sword?

What if something in the official download tripped a flag that lead Chihiro to have him eliminated.

And what if Schueler, suspicious of Chihiro’s motives had already begun a resistance plan, involving a hidden VR simulator, AI advisor, virtual personalities of trusted subordinates like Khody, and stealthed, hard-wired sensors to at least some of the real world.

Or, perhaps Khody, like Nimue actually volunteered to “die” so as to be able to tracelessly join Schueler’s virtual staff.

With the AI to monitor outside stimuli and the VR inhabitants either suspended or else running in a slowed down time frame (where, say, 1 day in VR = 1 month or year IRL) it’s conceivable that the virtual crew was following the events of the Jihad and possibly even the Inner Circle, at least at a distance. Once events had reached a point where they could act with a reasonable chance of success, they launch the pre-planned “Visitation”... just before Nahrmahn could launch his own version.

Oh to be a virtual SNARC in the simulator to see his reaction to being one-upped....

And then, maybe have the Khody file from the speculative helmet/recorder join Owl and Nahrmahn as the liaison between the two systems and organizations.

Just a little fun. 8-)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by isaac_newton   » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:06 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:
PlaysWithBees wrote:One thing to keep in mind with all this speculation about the SSK working with Schueler is the little fact that the Mother Superior of SSK is married to one Merlin, is a member if the IC, and was blindsided by the truth when introduced to it. If she had ANY knowledge about a Schueler return/reveal/exposé, I am sure she would have given him a heads up since they would be working towards similar and allied purposes.


My reading of Nynian is that she understands 'need to know' in her very bones. Look at the way she kept the evidence of the Sisters of St Khody secret from the Circle, even when she was using the resources of the Sisters to rescue Circle wives and children.

If she thinks Merlin doesn't have need-to-know, or may need to truthfully say he didn't know, she wouldn't tell him. Husband or not.



I have to say that I don't agree with this...

1) she only kept things secret BEFORE she joined the inner circle!

2) I just cannot see how concealing something that relates to, or throws light on, the uttermost crucially important event in Safehold would be of any possible benefit!
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bluesqueak   » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:43 pm

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isaac_newton wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:
My reading of Nynian is that she understands 'need to know' in her very bones. Look at the way she kept the evidence of the Sisters of St Khody secret from the Circle, even when she was using the resources of the Sisters to rescue Circle wives and children.

If she thinks Merlin doesn't have need-to-know, or may need to truthfully say he didn't know, she wouldn't tell him. Husband or not.



I have to say that I don't agree with this...

1) she only kept things secret BEFORE she joined the inner circle!

2) I just cannot see how concealing something that relates to, or throws light on, the uttermost crucially important event in Safehold would be of any possible benefit!


No, Nynian kept things secret after joining the Inner Circle - or rather, didn't mention them until she had to. A quick search in Through Fiery Trials came up with Nynian mentioning (when she had to) that her 'footmen' in Zion were all Helm Cleaver operatives - which Merlin hadn't known. And Merlin had contacted several of the Zion Helm Cleaver operatives to pass messages, bring supplies and do an emergency rescue.

But despite the fact that the two of them were sleeping together at that point, despite the fact that he'd been her courier to Zion, he hadn't had a clue that any of Madame Phonda's employees (beyond Sandaria) were also with Helm Cleaver. He didn't need to know it, so Nynian didn't mention it.

I think there might be another couple of examples, but that was the first one I found.

2) One answer to that is: she hasn't (yet) told the Inner Circle because she knew they'd say 'Don't do this.' ;)

The Assistant Rector of the Cathedral of the Holy Schuler has the first name 'Kohdy'. It's mentioned in the chapter how unusual it is after the Jihad for anyone to volunteer for a church dedicated to Schuler. Either it's an authorial red herring so big you could feed a family on it or the Sisterhood is somehow involved.

Second possible answer - Nynian didn't know what was going to happen. She and the Sisterhood simply had a centuries old 'heads up', which made her suspect that Schuler's Cathedral needed an agent in place. She didn't mention it because she still has lots of agents in place and if she mentioned all of them, she and Merlin would never get any time to not sleep. Plus, it would violate need to know. :D
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:57 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:She and the Sisterhood simply had a centuries old 'heads up', which made her suspect that Schuler's Cathedral needed an agent in place.


...Seriously, sometimes I wonder: what was Inquisition doing? There were Shain-Wei followers conspiracies all around Safehold for a good part of millennia, and they didn't even notice them.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bluesqueak   » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:29 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:She and the Sisterhood simply had a centuries old 'heads up', which made her suspect that Schuler's Cathedral needed an agent in place.


...Seriously, sometimes I wonder: what was Inquisition doing? There were Shain-Wei followers conspiracies all around Safehold for a good part of millennia, and they didn't even notice them.


In the case of the Sisterhood of St Kohdy, I suspect the Inquisitors concerned were having very sad and distinctly permanent accidents. :twisted:

In the case of Charis, probably it was the sheer distance from Zion.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:21 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:She and the Sisterhood simply had a centuries old 'heads up', which made her suspect that Schuler's Cathedral needed an agent in place.
Dilandu wrote:
...Seriously, sometimes I wonder: what was Inquisition doing? There were Shain-Wei followers conspiracies all around Safehold for a good part of millennia, and they didn't even notice them.
Bluesqueak wrote:
In the case of the Sisterhood of St Kohdy, I suspect the Inquisitors concerned were having very sad and distinctly permanent accidents. :twisted:

In the case of Charis, probably it was the sheer distance from Zion.
Also, in both cases neither group of conspirator acted aggressively beyond information gathering. Internally, they simply discussed doctrine and applied what additional information they knew about from their direct sources.

The SSK had Khdoy's journal and his armor and shield. The Brotherhood of St, Zherneau has his journal and the selected documents he saved. Neither group acted visibly to promote anything besides CoGA doctrine. Even so, the Grand Inquisitor suspected the Charisian clergy. Heck, he suspected any out islander clergy and for good reason.

So, the inquisition did recognize the patterns the Brothers in Charis had established. He suspected enough to make Charis an example to the other out islanders. The only reason they did not recognize the same thing of the SSK is that the SSK did not turn loose their direct action group, Helm Cleaver, until Clyntahn went beyond the pale. Once Helm Cleaver began their assassinations, the Inquisition recognized what they were within a couple of years.

So, the Inquisition was doing its job strenuously enough to encourage their zealots into all sorts of excesses. Unfortunately, its job was to brutalize the citizenry.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:56 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:In the case of the Sisterhood of St Kohdy, I suspect the Inquisitors concerned were having very sad and distinctly permanent accidents. :twisted:


...And nobody noticed that? Too many "accidents" would look very suspicious...
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:18 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:In the case of the Sisterhood of St Kohdy, I suspect the Inquisitors concerned were having very sad and distinctly permanent accidents. :twisted:
Dilandu wrote:
...And nobody noticed that? Too many "accidents" would look very suspicious...

They did notice quite quickly when those accidents did happen.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bluesqueak   » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:52 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:In the case of the Sisterhood of St Kohdy, I suspect the Inquisitors concerned were having very sad and distinctly permanent accidents. :twisted:
Dilandu wrote:
...And nobody noticed that? Too many "accidents" would look very suspicious...

They did notice quite quickly when those accidents did happen.


Yes, they did. But it's explicitly stated at some point in the series (At the Sign of Triumph, I think) that the Sisterhood of St Kohdy hit its active stage when Nynian decided the COGA was beyond internal reform - Clyntahn's election, I think it was.

So before that 'active' stage, the accidents were likely few and far between. Why would the Inquisition investigate an order of highly religious nuns living in a monastery that was snowed in for most of the year? Or investigate an order of teaching nuns with a reputation amongst high church officials as the convent school that would turn your badly behaved daughter into a doer of charitable works? Or help her discover her vocation?

Also, the way they'd hidden the sisterhood meant any Inquisition agent visiting either convent could be shown a perfectly normal school and a perfectly normal convent. As long as they didn't do anything beyond 'normal convent, would you like to see a perfectly innocuous class/pray at the Chapel of St Bedard?' they'd be fine.
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