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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by ssl4000g   » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:01 pm

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[/quote]
Keep in mind they are discussing postponing an attack on CoGA theology in this section. My point is that they are NOT entertaining anything that risks the perception of Shan Wei be behind Charis. Faking an archangels visitation when the archangels are returning would do just that.[/quote]
I agree. My point was the tech being proliferated as a means to continue undermining the Proscriptions and reinforces your point as well.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by ssl4000g   » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:13 pm

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I would point out too, on page 86 of the hardcover where an IC discussion of the troubles in Harchong is the topic, that the Nahrmahn Plan is again discussed and is contextual to the discussion at hand. That being industrial expansion. The text describes the success stories so far and, along with possible military support, providing Charisian technology in Boisseau.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:11 pm

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I really like the way Boisseau became the Crown Jewel of the Nahrmahn Plan. Charisian Tech will turn the most backward part of Safehold into an economic powerhouse. By the end of TFT Boisseau has the internal distribution network to support a massive economy. The United Provinces potentially control half of the geographic area of the Old Harchong Empire. They will likely control between 40%-50% of the current population. The UP will also have access to 3 mountain ranges and the exposed minerals they represent. The labor force will be incredibly innocent of aristocratic vices or even nouveau riche vices sweeping over Siddermark. Charis can teach their economic and ethical theories of governance and business on a clean slate.

Sure Harchong serfs and peasants can be corrupt as anyone. However, they are also most sensitive to the price of corruption on society, especially those at the bottom of society. Toss in the idea that UP citizens are not subjects of an emperor or lord, but an equal contributing member of the UP. Government serves at their pleasure, not the other way around. Shan Wei take any government that forgets that!

The United Provinces will be a powerhouse with most of their citizens so thoroughly committed to the ideals of Charis it'll make a Charisian embarrassed.
ssl4000g wrote:I would point out too, on page 86 of the hardcover where an IC discussion of the troubles in Harchong is the topic, that the Nahrmahn Plan is again discussed and is contextual to the discussion at hand. That being industrial expansion. The text describes the success stories so far and, along with possible military support, providing Charisian technology in Boisseau.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by wingfield   » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:17 am

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Don't forget that the "Nahrmahn Plan" has been bubbling along for some time and initially was focused on getting the technological development genie well out of the bottle.

This has worked exceedingly well, as discussed thoroughly in the text and in this thread.

Now it is time to remember that Merlin is referring to the final phase of the plan, clearly referring to something else and further along. In this context the allusion to Schueler spinning in his grave takes on greater significance.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:40 am

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So does the emphasis on NOT courting charges of being influenced by Shan Wei.
wingfield wrote:Don't forget that the "Nahrmahn Plan" has been bubbling along for some time and initially was focused on getting the technological development genie well out of the bottle.

This has worked exceedingly well, as discussed thoroughly in the text and in this thread.

Now it is time to remember that Merlin is referring to the final phase of the plan, clearly referring to something else and further along. In this context the allusion to Schueler spinning in his grave takes on greater significance.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Louis R   » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:02 am

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The Grand Argument lives again :lol:

As I said before, I'm on the fence on this one, and while it's getting a bit uncomfortable up here I'm still not coming down yet. Particularly since I've been looking around, and it seems like there may well be more that 2 sides to choose from.

The arguments against this being an IC production, and against it being the Original Schueler, are still as cogent as ever. If Nimue Alban, either of them, was prepared to engage in this kind of trickery, it would have happened decades ago. And very possibly saved several million lives - or perhaps not: who knows how it would have worked out in the end. Producing a giant apparition of an archangel in his own mausoleum is a very Big Lie indeed, regardless of the truth or falseness of what the apparition _says_. Abandoning the position that this is ultimately counterproductive is significant enough that it should be happening fully on-screen. OTOH, the apparition seems very aware of current events, and what it says would seem to be aimed at undermining the foundations of the belief of just about everyone on the planet. That awareness could be more apparent than real, of course: the actual wording is rather generic, and the Schueler in the Stone seems to have been very aware of the spiritual instability of the Church as reorganised after the WatF, and could have anticipated that the license his Book gives to human brutality would eventually be abused, badly. It probably wouldn't take a very sophisticated AI monitoring happenings in the Temple, even without access to remote sensors, to determine that such events had occurred and decide the timing of the release of a prepared package. However, so far I see absolutely no reason to think that the Schueler who was prepared to sign off on Langhorne's Folly and play the role of Archangel for a century or more would leave a package designed to do anything other that reset the foundations of faith and ensure another millenium of successful repression. He seems to have left his descendants - or very possibly deliberately created the lineage for - the task of guarding the purity, and thus the effectiveness, of the Church, why would he then proceed to destroy it?

Meanwhile, there's that drive-by comment from Himself to consider: where _have_ the SSK disappeared to, anyway? And what else might they have tucked away in their archives that Nynian wasn't allowed to show Merlin? And, come to think of it, how _did_ they survive their first century, in opposition to the implicit decree of the Church. Finally, how persuaded was Sister Sandaria, anyway. You'll remember that many here expected her to go rogue, with potentially disastrous consequences. What if she didn't, at least not in that direction? If, instead, she decided that Nimue Alban had all the powers and knowledge of an Archangel because she _was_ one, who chose to deny the possibility because God's plan had changed in the face of the failure of men to keep His Church holy, and conveyed this conclusion to those members of the Sisterhood who shared her own tendencies [which I had the impression were not based on drawing the same conclusions from the parts of Khody's journal they could read that that Nynian did], what would they choose to do? Producing the apparition is a pretty big stretch for them, but had they been given custody of more that just the artifacts associated with their Saint? Things that persuaded them that they knew the true history of the Fall and the War. Artifacts that, once they had the knowledge Sandaria garnered during her time in the Cave, they realised could be put to use to create the apparition - maybe even were intended to allow them to do something of the sort. The delay could be deliberate, or simply result from the time took them to actually master the tools they had.

And, for a forth direction to potentially fall in, consider the possibility that the Thing Under the Temple really did wake up on the early schedule - and, looking around, decided that a reset was in order. With a reversion to the prewar Writ as, perhaps, the first step. A step that was for reasons that were good and sufficient to the Thing, if not [yet] obvious to us, best initiated outside the Temple.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Magistos   » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:50 am

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Louis R wrote:The Grand Argument lives again :lol:

And, for a forth direction to potentially fall in, consider the possibility that the Thing Under the Temple really did wake up on the early schedule - and, looking around, decided that a reset was in order. With a reversion to the prewar Writ as, perhaps, the first step. A step that was for reasons that were good and sufficient to the Thing, if not [yet] obvious to us, best initiated outside the Temple.


I admit I like this one because it at least comes along side my idea that it's an action by the Thing under the Temple, which I think is an AI Schulyer or something similar. Until we know what that is, I may just call it Booji, after the ancient Vorlon God. ;)

I think Booji did wake up, and it has been plotting, and this is it's first step - in either its own plan, or or a reach out to others, or both.

That said, the 3rd possibility, with the driveby from Himself is intriguing, but perhaps a bit of stretch. The groundwork is there, possibly, but I just don't see that yet.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by ssl4000g   » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:22 pm

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Page 225, hardcover copy, during the procession of the Grand Vicar designate, Karstayrs is watching the 'choreography'. He wonders what the impact would be if it was disrupted.

"Too bad we won't have the chance to find out, he reflected. Talk about the Nahrmahn Plan! If I thought Owl could hack the temple, break into the system and reprogram all this...pageantry and turn it around on them...

He put the temptation behind him and focused on the ceremony unfolding all around him."

Throws a wrench into the point I brought up earlier.

W
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by ssl4000g   » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:27 pm

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Page 266, hardcover, Ehdwyrd says, "...But we won't be the only shipbuilders forever, and that's good, a big part of the Nahrmahn Plan to drive other realms into actively fostering their own industrial development."

Trying to present texted when I find it.

W
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:32 pm

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Something is broken in the whole temple. Most of the IC have noted that the total amount of change that has occurred in less than three decades has been massive. That sort of sweeping change should have triggered something, yet hasn't. Why? One might conclude that whatever Schueler did to set up the Key and his lineage of guardians to use the key is part of why there has been no response.

He might have sabotaged Chihiro's plan for whatever would guide the OBS. That plan might have established an intelligence to guide the OBS and Schueler used the Key to turn off that intelligence. It can re-start the system, but once re-started the system will remain online. Perhaps Chihiro had set up some automatic trigger to launch the intelligence but Schueler switched the triggering mechanism to the Key. In any case, the Temple is hamstrung unless the Key is used or the Return happens.

If this is correct, then it follows that Schueler has his own agenda that is not shared by Chihiro. Schueler may well believe that Chihiro has gone too far at the end of the War Against the Fallen. He might have been persuaded by Seijin Khody. Who knows. What we do know is that the OBS seems broken and we have a Key that can trigger something in the Temple that will save the Church in its greatest need as judged by men of integrity, compassion and a deep abiding faith in God first and the Church second. That suggests to me that Schueler could well have planned his Visitation or perhaps set up other ongoing mechanisms.

Perhaps the reason Nynian knew about the Wylsyn's Circle is that her group is also part of Schueler's plan. We don't know what that plan is or just what Nynian knows or is required to do as part of that plan. All those deaths that happen just at the right time to throw Safehold society into turmoil. Between Syngpu's inside knowledge of the Emperor's Spears plans early enough to ambush two important detachments. Those ambushes resulted in the Empire of Harchong breaking up into pieces that are NOT supportive of the CoGA. Rainbow Waters controls the smallest portion of Harchong. We have circumstances that caused a dragon to run amok in Siddermark. We have the death of the patriarch of Siddermark's premier banking house. We have a successful assassination attempt of a Lord Protector. We have a scion of that banking house committing massive fraud to toss Siddermark into a massive economic dislocation. There are just a lot of coincidences leading to Siddermark having more reason to act on their hatred of the Temple and Temple Loyalists. All they will need in a short period of time is a Short Victorious War against the Temple bereft of able allies.

Perhaps the SSK are acting on Schueler's behalf to destroy the CoGA and they either set up the Visitation or executed the Visitation per Schueler's plan. I prefer to believe the SSK executed Schueler's plan. Nynian may or may not know about it.
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