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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Tararoys   » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:08 pm

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TangoLima wrote:It will turn out the way DW has planned.
That said, bragging rights for the closest speculation !
I think it is a double fake by DW and we will get slammed from an entirely unexpected vector.
I do agree the Narhman tearing out his virtual hair has
a certain appeal. Picking Scheulers's Day and Cathedral
is a most potent portent no matter who-done-it.



Speaking of double fakes...the sneakiest plot twist I can imagine is for a being to show up, call itself an archangel...and genuinely believe it is as archangel. After all, most of the colonists’s minds were rewritten. And Khody’s was rewritten twice. What if Schueler got zapped into thinking he was a divinity? If the zapping were thorough enough, and we know that with federation tech it can be, Schueler could genuinely think he is God’s messenger, while simultaneously coming to realize that Chihiro is thwarting God’s will. Of course, his ability to manufacture items like the key, the stone, and the Testament of Schueler argue against it, but then against, people make stuff all the time without knowing exactly what they’re making, so that point may be a wash.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by TangoLima   » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:24 pm

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If it isn't Operation Androcles, would it be enough
to get Paityr back to the Temple Lands ?
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by evilauthor   » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:26 pm

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What I'm really hoping is that the Schueler visitation was actually arranged by Schueler, not some Inner Circle scheme departing from all their previously established MO. It'd make things... interesting, especially if "Schueler" isn't actually opposing the Inner Circle's goals, but is actually trying to do the same thing through an entirely different means that the Inner Circle wouldn't approve of (aka, continuing to masquerade as divinity).
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Krenn   » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:49 pm

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Of course, one argument for why this MIGHT be a message left by the Real Schueler is the dog that didn't bark....

The inner circle has been wondering for a while now why the Orbital Defense platforms weren't reacting to anything, and apparently weren't even conducting meaningful surveillance.

If Schueler died last, or 2nd-to-last.... it would have been very plausible for him to leave behind a simple, hidden, time-delayed computer instruction for the Orbital Defense Network. Something like... "One year after a verified archangel was last recorded as being connected to the network, assume all Archangels are dead. Once that happens, firing on any planetside target is no longer authorized."

If Schueler DID leave behind that secret de-weaponization order, it would explain the way the Orbital Defense Network has been behaving. And if Schueler DID do that, it would also explain leaving behind the Stone of Schueler, and a timed message to deliver Schueler's Testimony a thousand years later.

Maybe the complete text of Schueler's Testimony is also the decryption passkey necessary to understand whatever's on the Stone? Just in case anyone was still around in a thousand years, with advanced computing resources?
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Henry Brown   » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:16 pm

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justdave wrote:It was Schueler’s ‘home’ church which just happens to be outside of Zion and I’m betting it was from the original Writ before Chihiro rewrote it

remember the inner circle has gone out of it’s way to never lie about GOGA


But Chihro DID lie. And Shan-Wei did not fall, allowing evil into the world. So technically the vision was not lying.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Krenn   » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:25 pm

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Henry Brown wrote:
justdave wrote:It was Schueler’s ‘home’ church which just happens to be outside of Zion and I’m betting it was from the original Writ before Chihiro rewrote it

remember the inner circle has gone out of it’s way to never lie about GOGA


But Chihro DID lie. And Shan-Wei did not fall, allowing evil into the world. So technically the vision was not lying.


Yeah, but that part about (paraphrasing) "I, Schueler, leave behind my testimony, that others may know that I, Schueler, truly did appear before you..."

If that wasn't really a message recorded by Schueler, then it pretty much has to be lie, since Schueler wasn't truly speaking.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:49 pm

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Jeslis wrote:
This isn't exactly accurate.

Remember, when we (the reader) found out about Seijin Khody, and the order of .. nuns? that exists unto the present. We also found out that there was a gap in time between the 'Alexandria Strike, and subsequent 'vest pocket nuke'.. and the actual war of the fallen.

My understanding of this is that after the nuke went off.. Chihiro and Scheuler (sp?) built Zion.. and built that huge bunker specifically because they realized/thought/anticipated the war of the fallen to occur... which it did.

So in essence, the reason the temple was built as a fortress//PDB, has already occured.


But for what reason they might need such a fortress? The main Archangel base before and during the War was "Hamilcar". It was also their single most important military asset, which clearly survived till the end of the war and the "departure" of remaining Archangels. And it was MUCH better defensive position than any planetary bunker.
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Kael Posavatz   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:27 am

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GregD wrote:
DrakBibliophile wrote:Definitely and the most important clue is in "Schueler's" words.

While He doesn't mention Clyntahn by name, the phrase "Terrible, evil deeds were done in my name" obviously refer to Clyntahn's actions.

If the real Schueler had recorded this and arranged for the delivery of the physical book, then he had to be a Real Archangel to arrange for the event happening so soon after some events caused by somebody like Clyntahn.

Now a Cybernetic copy (AI or PICA) of Schueler could have been behind it, but there is strong evidence that Nahrmahn is behind this appearance unless....

Cybernetic Schueler beat Nahrmahn to it. :P


Sorry, but there's nothing conclusive in his words. Decent human beings have had more than enough time to figure out that the punishments in the "Book of Schueler" are evil.



There are a couple of ways to read that, I think.

It's written past-tense, so it could reference acts during the War Against the Fallen, or from a kind of 'haha-I-have-secret-future-knowledge-past-tense.'

I think saying that people should have figured it out is giving humanity a bit more credit than is due. Those who saw them first hand would probably agree, but there are also large populations where the Question and Punishment were never employed.

On the otherhand there's a great deal of inertia. It is (aside from a very small number of people) the Writ is the literal word of God, so to say 'this is evil' would be to say 'God is evil.'

And unlike Earth, Safehold hasn't had the sociocultural and religious evolution (and revolution) that have slowly secularized society. Safehold has no equivalency of the separation of church and state (and even has large areas where te church is the state). Most would find contemporary ignorance of the laws laid down in Exodus and Leviticus as incomprehensible as modern society (in pretty much any culture) would find acceptance of the Book of Schueler.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:49 am

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The Archangels ARE returning and the IC plant a false recording? Whoever returns will prove the recording false and be more likely to respond....violently. Better that the IC use their hiatus from any return to build up their Terran tech base enough to take out the OBS. Afterwards, they can make the arguments for getting rid of the Proscriptions.

The IC have quite a bit to go in developing the current tech and disseminating it before they NEED to attack the core Writ. Toss in an actual returning Archangel and faking the Schueler Visitation is tactically foolish and highly risky. No, the Visitation was a recording sent by Schueler himself or his digital copy.

Could be that Project Androcles refers to another Androcles. Androcles and the Lion comes to mind. That or Nahrmahn's project is completely different
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:49 am

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PeterZ wrote:The Archangels ARE returning and the IC plant a false recording? Whoever returns will prove the recording false and be more likely to respond....violently. Better that the IC use their hiatus from any return to build up their Terran tech base enough to take out the OBS. Afterwards, they can make the arguments for getting rid of the Proscriptions.

The IC have quite a bit to go in developing the current tech and disseminating it before they NEED to attack the core Writ. Toss in an actual returning Archangel and faking the Schueler Visitation is tactically foolish and highly risky. No, the Visitation was a recording sent by Schueler himself or his digital copy.

Could be that Project Androcles refers to another Androcles. Androcles and the Lion comes to mind. That or Nahrmahn's project is completely different


Agreed. There MUST be something in the Temple, that would monitor such occurrences. Otherwise, it would be far too simple for any "demon" in possession of holoprojector to undermine the whole Church by arranging some "archangel visitation" several centuries after the War. While Rakurai Array might be minding its own buisness, the Temple is obviously much more active & we have evidences, that automatic at least partially monitored the situation (at least on ceremonies).

It wouldnt be hard to link the Temple surveillance system with pattern analyser program, which would notice the overuse of certain phrases like "miracle", "angelic visitation", ect.

So yes, I agree - it looks far too dangerous for Narhmann & Owl to try. Especially, considering that they did NOT knew (still) the exact truth about what happened in the past. Any "version of events" they may put into their "Schueller testimony" might be just as flawed as the "common one". Not to mention, that why should they use only the Schueller? Why not Langhorne himself?
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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