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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by major_major   » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:19 pm

major_major
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Hey, gang!
I've read all the Safehold books and await the next book, hoping it will give us some answers to our quetions and also, of course, give us some new tidbits to ponder on.

But in the meantime, I've enjoyed all the speculation as to the whos and whats that will make up what comes next.

One thing that I've noticed, though, is that there doesn't seem to be any mention of all the parts of sejin Kody's journal that were written in Spanish. I would certainly think that they could be readily translated for Merlin, Nimue, and the IC.

Fire away!! I've got my antiballistic undies on! :)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Terranovan   » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:26 pm

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It's occurred to me to wonder - if this was a fake, why would whoever was faking it choose to put these words in Schueler's mouth? Why not Langhorne or maybe Bedard? Seems to be a point in favor of this being the real deal here.

Possible sequence of events:
Schueler wanted this recording to have played just after the CoGA Reformation to make the necessary doubt of Chihiro more plausible. So, he made the recording and set it to play after a time delay of several years after when it was triggered by the Key.
He told the initial recipients of the Stone & Key that they would awaken a weapon for the Church in its hour of greatest need in the expectation that it would be used during the Jihad.
This was successful on his part. Someone in the Wylsynn family (just barely escaping the Inquisition) used the Key, and here we are.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Randomiser   » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:23 pm

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Terranovan wrote:He told the initial recipients of the Stone & Key that they would awaken a weapon for the Church in its hour of greatest need in the expectation that it would be used during the Jihad.
This was successful on his part. Someone in the Wylsynn family (just barely escaping the Inquisition) used the Key, and here we are.


Problem 1 is 'How could he have foreseen the Jihad?'

Problem 2 is the Key is a physical object which has been in Paityr Wylsynn's possession since long before the plans to eliminate Charis, never mind the Jihad, and hence it has never been near the Temple in the required time frame.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Terranovan   » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:16 pm

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Randomiser wrote:
Terranovan wrote:He told the initial recipients of the Stone & Key that they would awaken a weapon for the Church in its hour of greatest need in the expectation that it would be used during the Jihad.
This was successful on his part. Someone in the Wylsynn family (just barely escaping the Inquisition) used the Key, and here we are.


Problem 1 is 'How could he have foreseen the Jihad?'

Problem 2 is the Key is a physical object which has been in Paityr Wylsynn's possession since long before the plans to eliminate Charis, never mind the Jihad, and hence it has never been near the Temple in the required time frame.


Problem 1 could be addressed by Schueler thinking that with the Church set up to repress, it was going to break down in something resembling the Reformation eventually. Add in Langhorne, Bedard, Chihiro, and/or Jwo-jeng writing the Writ to pattern its war after the Islamic jihad, and that's Schueler foreseeing as much as he did.

Problem 2, though, you have me fair and square on. Hadn't remembered that. Unless - maybe you didn't need the Stone to awaken this "weapon"? I don't remember his message in the Stone that exactly. More likely, though, that this was the "judgement in 1000 years" the Stone promised by means of a simple time delay.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Spoz   » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:43 pm

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After vacillating through 3 complete readings, I'm now firmly on the "not the IC" side -

a. It's a use of technology which would be on the prohibited list if used other than in the work of the Archangels (which might well be identifiable to the bombardment system by some form of encrypted key) and which would, if done by the IC, presumably trigger that system.

b. Predicting that someone in 1000 years would have used the Writ to justify atrocities doesn't require a knowledge of current events - just human history, and

c. It is more or less1000 years later. So it is at least possibly the "return" Schuler promised - and the reason he has come back with that message he has is that he thought 300 years was too short, but he wanted the proscriptions to be eventually done away with.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Julia Minor   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:59 pm

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Randomiser wrote:
Julia Minor wrote:
The Inner Circle knows about the secret escape tunnel Clyntahn tried to use in AST. At least, Merlin and Nimue know about it (since they intercepted him at the exit), and I can't think of any reason for them not to have mentioned it. Since they also now know passive Fed-tech can be brought safely into the Temple, a Helm Cleaver member could have been sent through the tunnel to look for those archives.


That Tunnel has been thought of as a route for various nefarious schemes. Unfortunately there is an RFC post somewhere that explicitly says it can't be used for infiltration. He then gives one of 'those' grins and says 'I never told you where the entrance is located in the Temple buildings, did I?' or something very similar, the implication being that it is somewhere any sneaky entrant would very much dislike. Wish I| could remember where that was, sorry.


Thanks, Randomizer!

(And sorry for the delayed response, I've had a family member in the hospital.)

Pity, a caper-movie infiltration would have been fun, but at least we can cross off one possible way the IC could have gotten the information for a fake Testimony.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Julia Minor   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:05 pm

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major_major wrote:
One thing that I've noticed, though, is that there doesn't seem to be any mention of all the parts of sejin Kody's journal that were written in Spanish. I would certainly think that they could be readily translated for Merlin, Nimue, and the IC.


Owl did translate the Spanish sections of Kohdy's journal, he and Nahrmahn gave a printout of the full journal to Sahndaria to read. But as I recall, someone mentions on-page that those sections didn't say just what evidence sent Kohdy to Zion to talk to Schueler/get killed.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Julia Minor   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:25 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
dobriennm wrote:Which ever one of us is right, much consternation will ensue.

As will much bloodshed, unfortunately as Desnair and South Harchong reject the revelations and start a new Holy War. Cynically on the part of the rulers as they will use their populace's religious fervor to motivate much shedding of their people's blood to maintain their position and power.
Desnair and South Harchong can start a new Holy War if they like, but what can they actually do? Just who would they be fighting?

Desnair has no navy, and no way of projecting power beyond its borders to anyplace it does not directly connect to. Zhyou Zhwo in South Harchong is in a similar position, and increasingly hemmed in. What havoc can they cause beyond their own borders?


If the response from Zion is anything other than outright condemnation of the Testimony of Schueler, I'm putting a hot fudge sundae on South Harchong going full Counter-Reformation. They might not be able to move directly against "the foul heretics who have seized Langhorne's holy city", but they can quit sending tithe money to Zion, which should have some impact on the CoGA's efforts to rebuild their economy. Even if Rhobair reduced the tithe to pre-Jihad levels once he became Grand Vicar, the Safehold tithe is a larger percentage than the customary Terran Christian tithe, so that's a larger chunk of money that can either go toward building a new Temple or (more likely) fund the South Harchong military complex.

[tangent] I don't think it was ever mentioned, but once the Jihad ended did tithes from Temple Loyalists in the Charisian Empire get forwarded to Zion?[/tangent]
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:02 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:
major_major wrote:One thing that I've noticed, though, is that there doesn't seem to be any mention of all the parts of sejin Kody's journal that were written in Spanish. I would certainly think that they could be readily translated for Merlin, Nimue, and the IC.

Owl did translate the Spanish sections of Kohdy's journal, he and Nahrmahn gave a printout of the full journal to Sahndaria to read. But as I recall, someone mentions on-page that those sections didn't say just what evidence sent Kohdy to Zion to talk to Schueler/get killed.

Correct. Kohdy never committed to writing just what evidence the Fallen had presented to him that Chihiro had turned to evil. He only stated it shook him enough to go to Zion and speak to Schueler about it.

He was killed in Zion, and the IC suspects it was because he was a threat to Chihiro, but there is no information about whether he actually spoke to Schueler.

I think he did. There is no reason for Chihiro to kill him just because he came to Zion to report to his CO in person. Chihiro would know nothing about Kohdy's encounter with the Fallen. My suspicion is that he did speak to Schueler, and Schueler was sufficiently upset by what Kohdy said to question Chihiro about just what he was up to. If Chihiro discovered that was because of Kohdy, I can see him having Kohdy killed to prevent him from making anyone else ask inconvenient questions.

My guess is that Chihiro fobbed off Schueler with a misleading answer, and left Schueler with an interesting problem, especially after Kohdy turned up dead. He now had pretty convincing evidence Chihiro was up to no good, but what does he actually do? Chihiro was in firm enough control that publicly opposing him would be a good way for Schueler to get dead too, so any action he took would need to be more subtle and longer term.

I think the appearance in the cathedral an the Testimony of Schueler is that more subtle and longer term action.
______
Dennis
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:54 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:Desnair and South Harchong can start a new Holy War if they like, but what can they actually do? Just who would they be fighting?

Desnair has no navy, and no way of projecting power beyond its borders to anyplace it does not directly connect to. Zhyou Zhwo in South Harchong is in a similar position, and increasingly hemmed in. What havoc can they cause beyond their own borders?

If the response from Zion is anything other than outright condemnation of the Testimony of Schueler, I'm putting a hot fudge sundae on South Harchong going full Counter-Reformation. They might not be able to move directly against "the foul heretics who have seized Langhorne's holy city", but they can quit sending tithe money to Zion, which should have some impact on the CoGA's efforts to rebuild their economy. Even if Rhobair reduced the tithe to pre-Jihad levels once he became Grand Vicar, the Safehold tithe is a larger percentage than the customary Terran Christian tithe, so that's a larger chunk of money that can either go toward building a new Temple or (more likely) fund the South Harchong military complex.

I think part of South Harchong will go into full scale Counter Reformation mode. I think it already pretty much has. The Church of Harchong piously proclaims its loyalty to the Grand Vicar, while totally ignoring what the Grand Vicar is asking them to do. The one thing it hasn't done is formally schismed into a separate entity.

But Zhyou Zhwo is having lots of fun trying to assert his control as Emperor. What obedience he gets will depend on how close folks happen to be to him and what troops he has available to compel folks if they balk. A fair bit of South Harchong is only nominally under his control, and actually controlled by various warlords professing loyalty to him as long as it gets them something, but who will happily try to depose him and crown themselves Emperor if they think they can pull is off. An open question is just how aware Zhyou Zhwo is of that.

While it isn't mentioned, I believe Desnair is still forking over its tithes, as are the Temple Lands, the Border States, Delferak, Dohlor, Silkih, Sodar, parts of North Harchong, and likely the Temple Loyalists in Siddarmark.

And with the end of the Jihad, the CoGA's expenses are much lower. It will take a while,but the CoGAis rebuilding its finances, and the increasing embrace of Charisian style industrialization in the Temple Lands is helping its economy.

[tangent] I don't think it was ever mentioned, but once the Jihad ended did tithes from Temple Loyalists in the Charisian Empire get forwarded to Zion?[/tangent]
My guess is they were. Archbishop Michael is firmly on the side of the individual's right to choose what they believe, and was a major supporter of religious toleration in Charis. The problem during the Jihad would simply be getting the tithes to the CoGA in Zion.

Now that peaceful diplomatic relations have been reestablished, that problem goes away.
______
Dennis
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