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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by kaid   » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:10 pm

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One thing that did strike me a tiny bit odd in this book was the IC's belief that even half a year was enough to decide there was no angelic appearance. Honestly if I was some AI in place by the archangels or some other kind of time capsule opening it makes an awful lot of sense to take a year or two and gather information about the current status of the world before opening my mouth and making any big appearances. That is one thing that keeps me from discounting an actual appearance by schuler or some pre programed thing by him.

Still the timing of starting operation androcles and then a vision of schuler appearing seem way to convenient to be a likely coincidence.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:05 pm

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kaid wrote:One thing that did strike me a tiny bit odd in this book was the IC's belief that even half a year was enough to decide there was no angelic appearance. Honestly if I was some AI in place by the archangels or some other kind of time capsule opening it makes an awful lot of sense to take a year or two and gather information about the current status of the world before opening my mouth and making any big appearances. That is one thing that keeps me from discounting an actual appearance by schuler or some pre programed thing by him.

Still the timing of starting operation androcles and then a vision of schuler appearing seem way to convenient to be a likely coincidence.
The IC was relying on an oral tradition in the Wylsynn family that Schueler had told them the Archangels would be returning in a thousand years. What the passed down wisdom did not say was when the clock started ticking. Was it a thousand years after the Creation? Or was it a thousand years after the the end of the War Against the Fallen? Or was it...

I think Schueler's appearance in the cathedral built to house the tomb for his discarded mortal body and the IC implementing part II of Operation Androcles was a coincidence. Having it be an IC operation is simply too risky. What the IC "knows" about the early days following the Creation was what Commodore Pei provided in his downloads to Mimue's PICA. But his downloads stop at the point where he is going to a meeting with Langhorne and taking along a vest pocket nuke in retaliation for the OBS strike on the Alexandria Enclave. The IC's knowledge of events after that, including the War Against the Fallen, are at best spotty, and as Kohdy's diary revealed, some of what they though they knew wasn't entirely correct.

Trying to fake an appearance by Schueler, and leaving behind a Testimony they wrote would be insanely risky, precisely because of their fragmentary knowledge. It's highly likely that actual records from the period reside in the Temple, and if they don't agree with the Testimony, the whole thing gets dismissed as a demonic plot by Shan Wei. That doesn't serve anyone's purposes.

The IC has been extraordinarily careful all along to not knowingly lie in statements they are responsible for. Everything they said could be verified as factual by those who read it. I can't see them making stuff up out of whole cloth now, which it what their authorship of the Testimony would require.
______
Dennis
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:03 am

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DMcCunney wrote:I think Schueler's appearance in the cathedral built to house the tomb for his discarded mortal body and the IC implementing part II of Operation Androcles was a coincidence.
[snip]
Trying to fake an appearance by Schueler, and leaving behind a Testimony they wrote would be insanely risky, precisely because of their fragmentary knowledge.

[snip]

I can't see them making stuff up out of whole cloth now, which it what their authorship of the Testimony would require.
______
Dennis


The problem I have with this argumentation is that it (1) rests mostly on your opinion - while it ignores the text evidence from the book about what the IC actually has done.

And in order to make your opinion logically consistent and since you have no textev to support it you (2) put forward two assumptions - assumptions by you that are not based on the text.

(1):
Primarily you claim that the Schueler apparition was too risky - insanely risky as you put it - to be created by the IC.

That in itself is an opinion based on your own judgement. Now you can of course have every opinion you like, more power to you. I have no problem with that. Maybe you are even right about the risk.
However what I find problematical is putting an opinion over the textev from the book itself. That seems - daring to put it mildly. And the book textev points to the Schueler apparition having been orchestrated by the IC. I don't include the textev again since I have already thoroughly pointed it out in this thread.

(2) In the absence of textev and in order to create something to logically support your (at this point already made up opinion) you then create two assumptions. That's even more problematical. Usually one looks at the textev and then builds a theory around it rather than creating the theory first, then creating assumptions to fit it.

Let me explain:

Under (2) above you support your opinion about the risk posed by the Schueler apparition with the claim that the IC's knowledge was too fragmentary.

That's an assumption you make though. Yes, the IC does not know everything. But nowhere is it stated in the text that the IC does not know enough about the past to create a Book of Schueler that contains only truths.
To further support your position you then put a second assumption on top of your first assumption and suppose that the IC would have to 'make up things out of whole cloth'.

Neither assumption is supported by the text:

Nimue has Commodore Pei's account. And they have the knowledge of the brothers of St. Zernau. On top of that the author has arranged it so that the IC got their hands on Sejin Kohdy's diary. We haven't been shown yet what's in that - but DW included it for a reason. It all means the IC now knows a lot. They don't have to know everything. Just enough to fill a book.
Your assumption they don't know enough about the past to fill a book is patently untrue.

Your second assumption - that Narmaahn and Owl would have 'to create things out of whole cloth' - is unsupported by the text as well.

No one forces Owl and Narmaahn to put specific things (they don't know enough about) into the book! They can freely choose what to include and what not. So they can choose to put truths they know into the book instead of filling it with inventions. In fact, knowing their past tactics of never lying that's exactly what we should expect them to do.

Edited for spelling error.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Zagri   » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:24 am

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DMcCunney wrote:chueler's appearancNimue has Commodore Pei's account. And they have the knowledge of the brothers of St. Zernau. On top of that the author has arranged it so that the IC got their hands on Sejin Kohdy's diary. We haven't been shown yet what's in that - but DW included it for a reason. It all means the IC now knows a lot. They don't have to know everything. Just enough to fill a book.
Your assumption they don't know enough about the past to fill a book is patently untrue.

Your second assumption - that Narmaahn and Owl would have 'to create things out of whole cloth' - is unsupported by the text as well.

No one forces Owl and Narmaahn to put specific things (they don't know enough about) into the book! They can freely choose what to include and what not. So they can choose to put truths they know into the book instead of filling it with inventions. In fact, knowing their past tactics of never lying that's exactly what we should expect them to do.

Edited for spelling error.


Apart from anything else the IC cannot be 100% certain that the Schueler visitation is not about to happen. It would be more than faintly embarrassing if they launched the Testimony of Schueler on an unsuspecting world and a Schueler AI turned up saying: 'Hey guys, wait just one minute...'

Throughout the series Merlin, Michael Staynair, and Nahrmann himself repeatedly say they cannot lie as a way to bring down the church. In Through Fiery Trials we have precise description of the Nahrmann Plan:

"“Right this minute,” he said, “Charis is the shipbuilder to the world even more than we ever were before. Every steamship in existence existence was built in a Charisian yard, and we’ve got a backlog of orders that’s big enough to keep us expanding our shipyards for the next five years even if no one ever orders a single additional ship. But we won’t be the only shipbuilders forever, and that’s good, a big part of the Nahrmahn Plan to drive other realms into actively fostering their own industrial development.” He shrugged—very gently, mindful of his sleeping daughter. “One of the reasons Cayleb and Sharleyan have officially proscribed any foreign warship construction is to push other rulers to build their own yards because the only way they’ll get modern warships of their own is to build them themselves.”" from "Through Fiery Trials (Safehold Book 10)" by David Weber


The Nahrmann Plan is about forcing irreversible industrialisation. The Androcles project is part of the Nahrmann Plan. What does fabricating a Schueler visitation have to do with driving industrialisation?
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Isilith   » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:40 am

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Bruno Behrends wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:I think Schueler's appearance in the cathedral built to house the tomb for his discarded mortal body and the IC implementing part II of Operation Androcles was a coincidence.
[snip]
Trying to fake an appearance by Schueler, and leaving behind a Testimony they wrote would be insanely risky, precisely because of their fragmentary knowledge.

[snip]

I can't see them making stuff up out of whole cloth now, which it what their authorship of the Testimony would require.
______
Dennis


The problem I have with this argumentation is that it (1) rests mostly on your opinion - while it ignores the text evidence from the book about what the IC actually has done.

And in order to make your opinion logically consistent and since you have no textev to support it you (2) put forward two assumptions - assumptions by you that are not based on the text.

(1):
Primarily you claim that the Schueler apparition was too risky - insanely risky as you put it - to be created by the IC.

That in itself is an opinion based on your own judgement. Now you can of course have every opinion you like, more power to you. I have no problem with that. Maybe you are even right about the risk.
However what I find problematical is putting an opinion over the textev from the book itself. That seems - daring to put it mildly. And the book textev points to the Schueler apparition having been orchestrated by the IC. I don't include the textev again since I have already thoroughly pointed it out in this thread.

(2) In the absence of textev and in order to create something to logically support your (at this point already made up opinion) you then create two assumptions. That's even more problematical. Usually one looks at the textev and then builds a theory around it rather than creating the theory first, then creating assumptions to fit it.

Let me explain:

Under (2) above you support your opinion about the risk posed by the Schueler apparition with the claim that the IC's knowledge was too fragmentary.

That's an assumption you make though. Yes, the IC does not know everything. But nowhere is it stated in the text that the IC does not know enough about the past to create a Book of Schueler that contains only truths.
To further support your position you then put a second assumption on top of your first assumption and suppose that the IC would have to 'make up things out of whole cloth'.

Neither assumption is supported by the text:

Nimue has Commodore Pei's account. And they have the knowledge of the brothers of St. Zernau. On top of that the author has arranged it so that the IC got their hands on Sejin Kohdy's diary. We haven't been shown yet what's in that - but DW included it for a reason. It all means the IC now knows a lot. They don't have to know everything. Just enough to fill a book.
Your assumption they don't know enough about the past to fill a book is patently untrue.

Your second assumption - that Narmaahn and Owl would have 'to create things out of whole cloth' - is unsupported by the text as well.

No one forces Owl and Narmaahn to put specific things (they don't know enough about) into the book! They can freely choose what to include and what not. So they can choose to put truths they know into the book instead of filling it with inventions. In fact, knowing their past tactics of never lying that's exactly what we should expect them to do.

Edited for spelling error.



What all of the fans who keep saying "the IC did it!!!" keep forgetting is that a favorite tactic of our celery chaser is to let us assume that we read things that aren't really in the book.

We DID see that the IC were planning an addition to the Nahrman plan called operation Androcoles, we also see a vision of Schueler appear. Those two things happened in the text. NOWHERE IN THE BOOK did the IC go "Hey, let's make this vision of Schueler appear", nor did we see any reaction from the IC, along the lines of a denial like "whoa, where the hell did that come from" or claiming credit like"our plan looks like it is working and the COGA is freaking out right now". That connection exists only in the minds of the readers.

The fans think that they are putting 2 and 2 together and going "WOW THEY DID THAT", when there is absolutely no textev that the IC was involved at all. That is a CLASSIC RFC move to make us think we saw what wasn't there at all.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:31 am

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Isilith wrote:
What all of the fans who keep saying "the IC did it!!!" keep forgetting is that a favorite tactic of our celery chaser is to let us assume that we read things that aren't really in the book.


Read pages 13 and 14 of this thread. Your opinion has already been discussed. We are not forgetting anything.

To repeat: yes, of course DW can be sneaky - when he chooses to be.

But does he in this case? None of us know.

He could be or he couldn't be. So your idea is no argument either way.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by pbreed   » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:18 am

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The Mad wizard, is reading this thread, and the resolution of the central enigma outlined here is not yet written, this will be resolved in a way to maximize the speculation error contained within the thread.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Isilith   » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:53 pm

Isilith
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Bruno Behrends wrote:
Isilith wrote:
What all of the fans who keep saying "the IC did it!!!" keep forgetting is that a favorite tactic of our celery chaser is to let us assume that we read things that aren't really in the book.


Read pages 13 and 14 of this thread. Your opinion has already been discussed. We are not forgetting anything.

To repeat: yes, of course DW can be sneaky - when he chooses to be.

But does he in this case? None of us know.

He could be or he couldn't be. So your idea is no argument either way.


Umm, what are you smoking? Pointing out that there is ZERO direct textev on the visitation being produced by the IC is damnably relevant. I am pointing out a fact, not what I want to happen. Yours is the pure speculation point.

That said, the IC COULD be behind it, but that has not been established in the books yet.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by dwileye13   » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:04 pm

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Bless him, RFC uses naming, either; personal names, missions or grand plans with meaning sometimes deep. This is a know habit.

Androcles is such a clear fable with a distinct moral - "gratitude is the sign of a noble soul" 8-)

How does that translate into a phony appearance of Schueler with a fake Testimony :idea: :shock:

Who is pulling a thorn out of the Lion's Paw>>
I am not young enough to know everything!
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:17 am

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Isilith wrote:
Umm, what are you smoking? Pointing out that there is ZERO direct textev on the visitation being produced by the IC is damnably relevant. I am pointing out a fact, not what I want to happen. Yours is the pure speculation point.


I have pulled the textev supporting the IC's involvement together upthread (pages 9-12 of this thread).

I would appreciate it if you could cut the personal attacks. I am neither smoking anything nor writing something out of wishful thinking. Why are you accusing me of such when you don't even know me?

In fact my first impression when reading the book was that the Schueler visitation was real. And I would kinda like that too if it were the case. Only on careful re-reading and looking at the key scenes did I realize that the opposite was likely true.
Last edited by Bruno Behrends on Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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