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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr | |
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by SilverbladeTE » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:51 am | |
SilverbladeTE
Posts: 308
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Bruno
You don't think RFC reads this, or knows what we might expect, and do sneaky stuff to make it entertaining? He's put in LOTS of possibilities and he's quite capable of carefully foreshadowing some twist, slight or large...or not at all Quite looking forward to see what way things go |
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr | |
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by Zagri » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:32 am | |
Zagri
Posts: 9
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I have reads the whole chapter. It does not fit. In particular the Nahrmann Plan is presented as an alternative to a doctrinal attack. We have a paragraph describing a doctrinal attack. And then what follows?
Moreover, back in OAR we have another passage that goes into much greater detail:
That is a major ethical commitment. It is what makes Merlin different from Langhorne. For Merlin to abandon that ethical commitment and start making angels appear and having them issue 'Decrees from God' would require a little more than what you have cited, which in any case does not say what you think its says. Operation Androcles is identified as the second stage of the Nahrmann Plan and the Nahrmann Plan is specifically mentioned as different from a doctrinal attack of the kind Merlin rejected back at the start of the series and by which he was 'instinctively revolted'. |
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr | |
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by noblehunter » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:28 pm | |
noblehunter
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While it's possible the IC would abandon the proscription against fabricating miracles, I find it unlikely they'd do so without a whole lot of arguing about it. It's not what's in the book that dis-inclines me to believe the IC was behind the Visitation, it's what's not in the book.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr | |
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by cnrd22 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:40 pm | |
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Lots of things changed since that first book and Merlin made other earlier claims that didn't apply as circumstances changed (telling Cayleb that he may never be able to tell him the full story, telling Cayleb that it's unlikely anyone will be able to fly openly on Safehold in their lifetime etc), not to speak of evolving from non-interfering in the process of dispatching the Charisian prisoners to the Temple to using "magic" (nanites) to kill everyone in an Inquisition prison. The jihad happened anyway, atrocities in millions and deaths in possibly tens of millions due to war, famine and later revolution happened too and Safehold is a much-changed world now, ripe for doctrinal evolution so to speak. Also CoGA has been shattered and it's now rebuilding in a gentler way which is of course mostly good, but it has side effects (like not be able to attack the Temple with regular troops and not having the Church as a moderating factor in world politics anymore), so a peaceful doctrinal revolution is for once conceivable and at least imho the step from having acknowledged separate churches to questioning the Archangels is narrower and easier to make than the step from the infallible monolithic "literal word of the archangels" church to the Church of Charis and the similar ones that are now appearing in various countries. So I am fairly sure that the ending is Operation Androcles, though bringing a Safeholdian Alignment in play (which was my theory before TFT) as a new credible antagonist for the Inner Circle (though now Siddarmark will make a clear such, so I rate it as much less likely) could be another possibility - though it raises a lot of issues (how do they spy on the IC, why announce themselves now, why this way...) I think it is obvious that the Schueler apparition is clearly based on contemporary events (language, text) and highly likely it is based on the knowledge of the IC planning their operation Androcles (which clearly uses something related to Schueler to challenge the doctrine of CoGA from all the text evidence we have), so if the IC didn't do it (still my bet it is IC), it must be some group that knows the truth, has some tech capability and spies (or tech spying) in the IC, but is not affiliated with the official Archangel story/Temple and is less powerful than the IC; again possible, but less likely imho |
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr | |
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by PeterZ » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:55 pm | |
PeterZ
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Also what's in the book suggests Operation Androcles will belittle in some humorous way. I don't see that happening with a full on visitation of an archangel. Whatever is in the Book of Schueler requires that it is from Schueler in order for it to be believed. Hard to ridicule an archangel and still have his book believed as truth. Heck, even if the IC planned on having the Book disbelieved, in disbelieving Safehold would attribute the entire affair to Shan-wei. How else can a fake visitation from an archangel be done but with Shan-wei's assistance? That doesn't sound like the Operation Androcles Merlin and Nahrmahn alluded to in the text. The only way that the visitation was Operation Androcles is if Nahrmahn changed plans and went for something not humorous. Then there was very little to indicate that in the text. Anyway you look at it, there was not enough in the text nor what text there was appropriate to support this Visitation as Operation Androcles. I sure hope we don't have to wait 2 years for the sequel to this. |
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr | |
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by DMcCunney » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:55 pm | |
DMcCunney
Posts: 453
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That's part of the reason I don't think Schueler's appearance is a contrivance of the Inner Circle. We don't yet know what is in the Testimony of Schueler, but it's pretty obviously his side of the story. That will involve events from the Creation through the War Against the Fallen and after the IC have only fragmentary knowledge of. There might actually be more verifiable records in the Temple. What the IC thinks it knows comes from Commodore Pei's downloads to Nimue's PICA. We know Chihiro's people built the OBS aboard Hamilcar, and deployed it just before it was used to keep Pie from doing anything about it, and that Chihiro pulled the trigger. Pei didn't, assumed Langhorne gave the order, and nuked him, Bedard, and a lot of their staff in retaliation. So what the IC thinks it knows is incomplete, and the IC is becoming aware it is. (And Pei's downloads predate the War Against the Fallen, which didn't begin till a couple of years after the OBS strike that turned the Alexandria Enclave into Armageddon Reef. Gotta wonder hard who began and led that.) And Schueler explicitly claimed Shan-Wei wasn't the fount of all evil and that Chihiro lied. That claim will tie Mother Church in knots when the Vicarate hears of it. On the one hand, the reflex response will be "That's not true! It can't be true!" But if it isn't, what did appear in Schuler's church in the Episcopate named after him, make that claim, and then leave behind a book of the same make as the master copy of the Holy Writ in the Temple? The IC might have been able to do it, but Mother Church doesn't know that. Its choices are that it was Schueler in miraculous visitation on the day commemorating his soul's departure from his mortal physical body to return to Heaven and be with God, or that it was a demonic visitation. The latter might be even worse than the former from Mother Church's perspective. But if it was Schueler and he can document Chihiro's lies, the very inerrancy of the Holy Writ is open to question. At bare minimum, trust in anything the Book of Chihiro says nosedives,and if Mother Church knows Chihiro was the editor, so to speak, that put the various Books that make up the Writ together in it's final form, what else might he have changed? I see various Vicars scurrying around like wyvverns without heads after they hear the story. But fundamentally, what the IC doesn't know (and knows it doesn't know) will leave them very cautious about any tales they might spin. As another poster pointed out, they have always been careful to not lie. Spin tales out of whole cloth and the likelihood something you say will be false and branded a lie approaches unity. I just don't see the IC going that far. We don't know what Narhmann's Operation Androcles is, save that it would make the Schueler commonly depicted go ballistic, but I don't think the divine manifestation is it. ______ Dennis |
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr | |
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by PlaysWithBees » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:14 pm | |
PlaysWithBees
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Ya know, Himself is undoubtably in danger of hurting something from laughing too hard while reading the back and forth comments here!
A few threads back,(don’t have the reference but we were discussing the non-Amazon preview) ppl were speculating abt this; perhaps it was from a 3rd, previously unknown group. RFC seemed quite enthusiastic about this speculation and stated something to the effect of: “A possible 3rd group? Who are they and what could their motives possibly be...” There’s a lot of room to wonder here and this chapter definitely did its job to get us wanting the next book! |
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr | |
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by Krenn » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:55 pm | |
Krenn
Posts: 95
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You know, that gets me thinking... I'm going to start a new thread about this... Speculation about what might be written inside the "Lost Testimony of Schueler" , and, of course, who might plausibly have written each proposed version, and how... |
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr | |
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by Hiruu » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:56 pm | |
Hiruu
Posts: 31
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While I’m not ready to say without a doubt that the Schuler apparition is part of the Narhman Plan or an actual move by Schuler of contrition, I’ll say that it would be a hugely risky move for IC, dangerous in both the short and long term. This is besides the fact that it would be a outright and complete fabrication. Using complete lies to counter complete lies is a strategy for failure, imho. The Temple is still reeling from heavy blows to its credibility it suffered in the Jihad. The IC making a move like this would create a serious schism in the Church and likely cause many to question what else might be fake or false. As with any schism, there will be a violent backlash, thinking about religious schism in our world today, we are still dealing with the results of schism from over 1000 years ago. I feel that there are more effective means to erode the faith in the tenants of the Church, then a massive Gauntlet Drop like this. They still have 80 years and think about that…80 years to prepare is immense amount of time. With the resources at Merlin’s disposal, I don’t see why they can take out the OBS, which is basically the loaded gun to any plans of modernization. Attacking that and taking out the boogie man would prove the falsehood far better than usurping the belief system in this manner. I don’t understand why they don’t basically turn Niume’s Cave into a NORAD type of location impenetrable by the OBS and start mass scale conversion to Federation level of technology and capability. The OBS is a relatively primitive system as compare to what the Federation was capable of. In 80 years, they could basically raise a cadre of millions with complete Federation level capability so that when the Archangels return, they are simply not able to compete. It’s hard to say you are some Deity when Joe down the Street has better Tech than you.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr | |
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by Bruno Behrends » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:57 am | |
Bruno Behrends
Posts: 587
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Look - whether you see why they can't take out the OBS or not is immaterial (whether I see it or not is immaterial too ). In the books it is made clear that they can't take out the OBS. That's one of the fundamentals of this drama: The 'easy shortcut' does not exist. Which makes the whole complex story possible in the first place. If DW had instead wanted to write a story with a simple military solution he would have. But apparently he wanted a story in which the characters are forced to use other, more longterm and underhanded ways to resolve the conflict. |
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