Whitecold wrote:
The betrayer already implies a singular betrayer, meaning Schueler is exonerated. The inner circle does not know how the split in the command team went.
Schueler is not exonerated at all. The 'archangel' apparition is suspiciously careful
not to name a name when speaking of the 'betrayer.' It could be Schueler, it could be Chihiro. It could theoretically even be someone else. The wording is carefully vague enough that it can never be found out as a lie (because it isn't one). While undermining Chihiro anyway.
Whitecold wrote:Also the speech is not the only thing, the testimony is the real sticking point. That seems to be a significant document, and for this to have the impact whoever created them wanted, they need to have enough content, including naming 'the betrayer' as advertised.
If they contain indeed the records of Schueler, it is very unlikely that the Inner Circle could fake them without making things up or getting into conflict with secret records, since there is so little known to the IC about the War of the fallen besides the official, inaccurate church record.
Now you are making up a hypothetical argument - a straw doll.
I say hypothetical because you do not yet even know what details are in this 'Testament of Schueler'.
As long as we don't know what's really in the Testament we don't know if there is anything untrue in it. Knowing Nahrmahn and Merlin I very much doubt there is.
Even if they do not know everything that is to know about the War of the Fallen they know enough about Safehold's early history - and especially about the original mission plan and which faction wanted to stick to it and how and which didn't - to have lots of true facts that can be inclued in the Testament without ever turning to making things up.
It will be very interesting to see which parts of the past (and Schueler's life) will turn out to be included in this document. I suspect the emphasis will be heavy on the original betrayal - the thing the IC knows a lot about - and quite light on the details of the later War of the Fallen and what Schueler did or didn't do in that. Anyway: My point is there are ways for the IC to
not put obviously fake details in the testament. So your hypothetical argument doesn't hold water.
(Now - if it should later turn out that indeed there are easily disproved fake details in the Testament
then we can have a discussion. We are not at that point though.
And we'll pobably never will be either. That's because if the Testament was really made by Schueler then it would probably not contain fake details. If it was not really by Schueler it would probably be correct too because the Inner Circle would obviously be careful in its wording. And it has an AI with perfect recollection (Owl), a second AI with perfect recollection (Nahrmahn) and two Picas with perfect recollection to draw on true details and avoid wrong ones.)
ywing14 wrote:I find it extremely unlikely this is part of Operation Androcles. The Circle's whole goal is to slowly change society so they'll accept the truth after a certain amount of time. This would be like them going for the jugular.
But that's what this apparition is doing: Slowly changing society.
This 'vision' is not going to suddenly make everyone on Safehold throw their beliefs overboard. What it will do is create
discussion. By causing a rift between those temple loyalists who think this is something real - or at least something to consider - and those whose knee-jerk reaction it is to reject it outright.
It is likely that at first the people considering it will be a distinct minority. And it will take time - lots of time - and possibly new generations growing up with this discussion and the doubt it sows - until that minority may possibly grow into a majority. And since that's such a long and difficult process they are starting it
now. When they still have a lot of time to work with before the next possible date for an 'Archangel' to reappear and dispute the Schueler apparition.
ywing14 wrote:I think Schueler changed like Saint Khody during the war of the fallen. I think he realized as it went on that he was on the wrong side. I find it likely when Khody came to him that was the final nail in the coffin but he realized it was too late to make any changes then.
I admit I have entertained that idea myself.
We don't know this happened though. That's because for all we know Schueler really
was on the 'wrong' side. And when Khody came to him Khody
was killed. That doesn't really give us much to work with where a sudden Saulus-to-Paulus conversion by Schueler is concerned.
It is still possible of course. Theoretically. But 'likely' as you say? Uh. With this scant evidence -
lack of evidence actually - I don't feel comfortable with using that word. Nevertheless I agree we should keep it in mind as a
possibility.
I have been thinking the Schueler key could turn out to be another hint here. (
If Schueler turns out to have left it with the Wylson family to undermine the church and not for another reason that is.) But we don't know why he did it
yet. So that too is pure speculation and no evidence at this point.
To all of you who think this 'Schueler appearance' would be too risky for the Inner Circle to be behind it:
I remind you that Nahrmahn and Merlin have a discussion about this point in chapter 1 of the book. Indeed the first sentence of the first chapter of the book is about this very topic! Your objections are looked at and adressed there in detail. Yes, the conclusion remains open in chapter 1. That's because those
are valid objections. But think about why these objections are discussed there in the first place! Why discuss them if the IC was not at least
thinking about a plan that would - have those objections - you know - come up?
Isn't it rather telling that the
first chapter goes into the reasoning - and the risk - inherent in the 'Nahrmahn Plan' while the
last chapter contains what seems to be the start of the execution of said plan? Like an alphabet: starting with A. Ending with Z.
I mean, really: in literature books have a beginning and an end and both usually have something to do with each other. And the in-between is the story of how to get from that starting point to that end point.
And you want to tell me it is 'unlikely' that ending really is the ending that was set up throughout the book and discussed in the first chapter? Huh.
I mean I can't of course 100% disprove you. But every clue in the book (and there are quite a lot of them as I already recounted upthread so forgive me that I am not recounting them here all over again) points to this Androcles Schueler apparition really being the Androcles operation Sharleyan and Cayleb authorized one chapter before.