***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

JeffEngel wrote:Two: The contents of the Testimony of Schueler. This is going to be suitable for the IC's purposes only if the Testimony won't be disconfirmed by anything reliable in the Writ, Commentaries, Testimonies, etc. - where it contradicts them, if at all, it's got to present itself as clearly better evidenced to compete with the traditional, accepted narrative. And the IC simply does not have an account of those days from Schueler or his close associates adequate to that standard. Seijin Kohdy's account is in the very general neighborhood, granted, but there's too much he did not know to make up a Testimony of Schueler the IC can use without taking an unacceptable gamble.

Exactly. It would be pretty much catastrophic for plotters, if Archangels, returning, would be able to easily disprove "Schueller testimony" by catching it on a simple inconsistencies with what's really happens. Even if those inconsistencies would be small, they would be utterly fatal, because for every Safeholdian any such inconsistency would be a clear proof that so-called "Schueller" was a phoney, a particularly cunning Shain-Wei trick (made possible, no doubt, by Charisian heresy ).

A thought's just occurred to me. We now know from the last scene that the Book of Schueler is about three-quarters concerned with teaching and ethics. The Punishment of Schueler is about a quarter of the book.

Now, I think most people here have been presuming that for Schueler to be a good guy, his Book would have to be written by someone else - nobody but a psychopath would hand a church a list of divinely sanctioned tortures. But suppose Schueler DID list those tortures, interrogation techniques, etc. - but as a list of things his Inquisition must never, ever do? And someone like Chihiro then turned the prohibitions into an instruction book on How To Treat Heretics?

From what we're told about the other 'practical' books, the 'Archangels' weren't shy about describing something in detail so that Safeholdians knew what to avoid.

I'm wondering if the full scale horrific execution of the Punishment was originally included as the ultimate deterrent against torture - it was Schueler's Curse against those who used torture

I find it extremely unlikely this is part of Operation Androcles. The Circle's whole goal is to slowly change society so they'll accept the truth after a certain amount of time. This would be like them going for the jugular. I think Schueler changed like Saint Khody during the war of the fallen. I think he realized as it went on that he was on the wrong side. I find it likely when Khody came to him that was the final nail in the coffin but he realized it was too late to make any changes then.

Whitecold wrote:
The betrayer already implies a singular betrayer, meaning Schueler is exonerated. The inner circle does not know how the split in the command team went.

Schueler is not exonerated at all. The 'archangel' apparition is suspiciously careful not to name a name when speaking of the 'betrayer.' It could be Schueler, it could be Chihiro. It could theoretically even be someone else. The wording is carefully vague enough that it can never be found out as a lie (because it isn't one). While undermining Chihiro anyway.

Whitecold wrote:Also the speech is not the only thing, the testimony is the real sticking point. That seems to be a significant document, and for this to have the impact whoever created them wanted, they need to have enough content, including naming 'the betrayer' as advertised.
If they contain indeed the records of Schueler, it is very unlikely that the Inner Circle could fake them without making things up or getting into conflict with secret records, since there is so little known to the IC about the War of the fallen besides the official, inaccurate church record.

Now you are making up a hypothetical argument - a straw doll.
I say hypothetical because you do not yet even know what details are in this 'Testament of Schueler'.

As long as we don't know what's really in the Testament we don't know if there is anything untrue in it. Knowing Nahrmahn and Merlin I very much doubt there is.

Even if they do not know everything that is to know about the War of the Fallen they know enough about Safehold's early history - and especially about the original mission plan and which faction wanted to stick to it and how and which didn't - to have lots of true facts that can be inclued in the Testament without ever turning to making things up.

It will be very interesting to see which parts of the past (and Schueler's life) will turn out to be included in this document. I suspect the emphasis will be heavy on the original betrayal - the thing the IC knows a lot about - and quite light on the details of the later War of the Fallen and what Schueler did or didn't do in that. Anyway: My point is there are ways for the IC to not put obviously fake details in the testament. So your hypothetical argument doesn't hold water.

(Now - if it should later turn out that indeed there are easily disproved fake details in the Testament then we can have a discussion. We are not at that point though.

And we'll pobably never will be either. That's because if the Testament was really made by Schueler then it would probably not contain fake details. If it was not really by Schueler it would probably be correct too because the Inner Circle would obviously be careful in its wording. And it has an AI with perfect recollection (Owl), a second AI with perfect recollection (Nahrmahn) and two Picas with perfect recollection to draw on true details and avoid wrong ones.)

ywing14 wrote:I find it extremely unlikely this is part of Operation Androcles. The Circle's whole goal is to slowly change society so they'll accept the truth after a certain amount of time. This would be like them going for the jugular.

But that's what this apparition is doing: Slowly changing society.
This 'vision' is not going to suddenly make everyone on Safehold throw their beliefs overboard. What it will do is create discussion. By causing a rift between those temple loyalists who think this is something real - or at least something to consider - and those whose knee-jerk reaction it is to reject it outright.

It is likely that at first the people considering it will be a distinct minority. And it will take time - lots of time - and possibly new generations growing up with this discussion and the doubt it sows - until that minority may possibly grow into a majority. And since that's such a long and difficult process they are starting it now. When they still have a lot of time to work with before the next possible date for an 'Archangel' to reappear and dispute the Schueler apparition.

ywing14 wrote:I think Schueler changed like Saint Khody during the war of the fallen. I think he realized as it went on that he was on the wrong side. I find it likely when Khody came to him that was the final nail in the coffin but he realized it was too late to make any changes then.

I admit I have entertained that idea myself.

We don't know this happened though. That's because for all we know Schueler really was on the 'wrong' side. And when Khody came to him Khody was killed. That doesn't really give us much to work with where a sudden Saulus-to-Paulus conversion by Schueler is concerned.

It is still possible of course. Theoretically. But 'likely' as you say? Uh. With this scant evidence - lack of evidence actually - I don't feel comfortable with using that word. Nevertheless I agree we should keep it in mind as a possibility.

I have been thinking the Schueler key could turn out to be another hint here. ( If Schueler turns out to have left it with the Wylson family to undermine the church and not for another reason that is.) But we don't know why he did it yet. So that too is pure speculation and no evidence at this point.

To all of you who think this 'Schueler appearance' would be too risky for the Inner Circle to be behind it:

I remind you that Nahrmahn and Merlin have a discussion about this point in chapter 1 of the book. Indeed the first sentence of the first chapter of the book is about this very topic! Your objections are looked at and adressed there in detail. Yes, the conclusion remains open in chapter 1. That's because those are valid objections. But think about why these objections are discussed there in the first place! Why discuss them if the IC was not at least thinking about a plan that would - have those objections - you know - come up?
Isn't it rather telling that the first chapter goes into the reasoning - and the risk - inherent in the 'Nahrmahn Plan' while the last chapter contains what seems to be the start of the execution of said plan? Like an alphabet: starting with A. Ending with Z.
I mean, really: in literature books have a beginning and an end and both usually have something to do with each other. And the in-between is the story of how to get from that starting point to that end point.
And you want to tell me it is 'unlikely' that ending really is the ending that was set up throughout the book and discussed in the first chapter? Huh.

I mean I can't of course 100% disprove you. But every clue in the book (and there are quite a lot of them as I already recounted upthread so forgive me that I am not recounting them here all over again) points to this Androcles Schueler apparition really being the Androcles operation Sharleyan and Cayleb authorized one chapter before.

DMcCunney wrote:RFC mentioned the Testimony of Schueler at a con a while back, as well as letting slip that Merlin and Nynian would become an item. (I did wonder about Nimue, and if/how she might get paired up. Korvyn Gavrai was an appropriate match, once the emotional underbrush was cleared away.)

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Another reason I doubt this is Narhman's work is that Charis and the Inner Circle have taken pains from the beginning to only say things that can be demonstrated to be true. They may suspect Chihiro was a bad guy, but I don't think they know enough to even speculate at this level, so anything they might write as the words of Schueler would have real potentials for causing problems if it proved to be wrong.




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Dennis

I think it's incredibly unlikely the Visitation is the work of the IC. It is not only that the IC have been very committed to not using special effects to make their case, but that the Visitation destroys any chance of making their case.

Truth Day dawns. The Archbishop of Charis stands up in Tellesberg Cathedral and says:

'The Archangels were evil people who used special effects to create a false religion. Oh, and the Visitation of Schueler was us using special effects to create a false religion. But we are good people. Not like the Archangels at all. Ummm...'

There would be a startled and deadly silence. Shortly thereafter there would be a massive riot the archbishop would be unlikely to survive.

Moreover the Visitation does not help the IC at all. It's another miraculous event that appears to confirm the command crew's archangelic nature while denouncing a particular archangel. The church is used to one fallen archangel. Adding another and rehabilitating Shan-wei is not going to help much.

Zagri wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:RFC mentioned the Testimony of Schueler at a con a while back, as well as letting slip that Merlin and Nynian would become an item. (I did wonder about Nimue, and if/how she might get paired up. Korvyn Gavrai was an appropriate match, once the emotional underbrush was cleared away.)

[]

Another reason I doubt this is Narhman's work is that Charis and the Inner Circle have taken pains from the beginning to only say things that can be demonstrated to be true. They may suspect Chihiro was a bad guy, but I don't think they know enough to even speculate at this level, so anything they might write as the words of Schueler would have real potentials for causing problems if it proved to be wrong.




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Dennis

I think it's incredibly unlikely the Visitation is the work of the IC. It is not only that the IC have been very committed to not using special effects to make their case, but that the Visitation destroys any chance of making their case.

Truth Day dawns. The Archbishop of Charis stands up in Tellesberg Cathedral and says:

'The Archangels were evil people who used special effects to create a false religion. Oh, and the Visitation of Schueler was us using special effects to create a false religion. But we are good people. Not like the Archangels at all. Ummm...'

There would be a startled and deadly silence. Shortly thereafter there would be a massive riot the archbishop would be unlikely to survive.

Moreover the Visitation does not help the IC at all. It's another miraculous event that appears to confirm the command crew's archangelic nature while denouncing a particular archangel. The church is used to one fallen archangel. Adding another and rehabilitating Shan-wei is not going to help much.

Welcome to the forums - you have started at a most interesting moment.

I have to say that I just can't make up my mind one way or the other.

I read one post and I think 'yup, thats true' then I see a post from the opposing point of view and I think 'yup, thats also true'

RFC has really done a job here!!

Zagri wrote:I think it's incredibly unlikely the Visitation is the work of the IC. It is not only that the IC have been very committed to not using special effects to make their case, but that the Visitation destroys any chance of making their case.

Truth Day dawns. The Archbishop of Charis stands up in Tellesberg Cathedral and says:

'The Archangels were evil people who used special effects to create a false religion. Oh, and the Visitation of Schueler was us using special effects to create a false religion. But we are good people. Not like the Archangels at all. Ummm...'

There would be a startled and deadly silence. Shortly thereafter there would be a massive riot the archbishop would be unlikely to survive.

Moreover the Visitation does not help the IC at all. It's another miraculous event that appears to confirm the command crew's archangelic nature while denouncing a particular archangel. The church is used to one fallen archangel. Adding another and rehabilitating Shan-wei is not going to help much.

Welcome from Mother Russia, Zagri!

I agree completely with your logic. Not only it didn't actually achieve anything except of creating MUCH more dissent and distress in all Safeholdian society (Charis NOT excluded), but also seems pretty dangerous trick to pull out. As I mentioned above, the "supernatural visitations" were the thing, that Archangels should fear the most - because they were pretty possible (a lot of "demons" probably have access to necessary equipment to make pretty believable "archangel visitation" and could easily store it for activating after several centuries) - and they should have some algorithm to deal with such cases.

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Welcome to the forums - you have started at a most interesting moment.

I have to say that I just can't make up my mind one way or the other.

I read one post and I think 'yup, thats true' then I see a post from the opposing point of view and I think 'yup, thats also true'

RFC has really done a job here!!

Thanks. The Visitation does both too much and too little to be the work of the IC.

Too much, because the immense majority of the Church of Charis are not in the IC and will be as confused, horrified and likely to resort to violence as believers in the COGA. It's as though the Anglican church decided to attack the Catholic church by disproving the existence of Christ.

Too little because swapping Shan-wei the Bright for Chihiro the Liar does not challenge the fundamental claims of the COGA about the Creation and the role of the Archangels.

So what does the IC gain? A possibly violent religious schism in both churches for an advantage that amounts to precisely nothing.

More accurate to say the Anglican argues against Catholics by disproving the apostolic succession, since both hold to the same succession.

Bruno Behrends wrote:

ywing14 wrote:I find it extremely unlikely this is part of Operation Androcles. The Circle's whole goal is to slowly change society so they'll accept the truth after a certain amount of time. This would be like them going for the jugular.

But that's what this apparition is doing: Slowly changing society.
This 'vision' is not going to suddenly make everyone on Safehold throw their beliefs overboard. What it will do is create discussion. By causing a rift between those temple loyalists who think this is something real - or at least something to consider - and those whose knee-jerk reaction it is to reject it outright.

It is likely that at first the people considering it will be a distinct minority. And it will take time - lots of time - and possibly new generations growing up with this discussion and the doubt it sows - until that minority may possibly grow into a majority. And since that's such a long and difficult process they are starting it now. When they still have a lot of time to work with before the next possible date for an 'Archangel' to reappear and dispute the Schueler apparition.

There is nothing slow about the Hologram appearing at a retreat in front of the entire order of Schueler. Slow would be working to make people openminded and change opinion over time. Not appear in front of Hundreds/Thousands of people who are part of a system that has believed something for almost 1000 years and say FYI everything you thought was a lie.