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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by ywing14   » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:18 pm

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Bruno Behrends wrote:
ywing14 wrote:I think Schueler changed like Saint Khody during the war of the fallen. I think he realized as it went on that he was on the wrong side. I find it likely when Khody came to him that was the final nail in the coffin but he realized it was too late to make any changes then.


I admit I have entertained that idea myself.

We don't know this happened though. That's because for all we know Schueler really was on the 'wrong' side. And when Khody came to him Khody was killed. That doesn't really give us much to work with where a sudden Saulus-to-Paulus conversion by Schueler is concerned.

It is still possible of course. Theoretically. But 'likely' as you say? Uh. With this scant evidence - lack of evidence actually - I don't feel comfortable with using that word. Nevertheless I agree we should keep it in mind as a possibility.

I have been thinking the Schueler key could turn out to be another hint here. ( If Schueler turns out to have left it with the Wylson family to undermine the church and not for another reason that is.) But we don't know why he did it yet. So that too is pure speculation and no evidence at this point.

To all of you who think this 'Schueler appearance' would be too risky for the Inner Circle to be behind it:

I remind you that Nahrmahn and Merlin have a discussion about this point in chapter 1 of the book. Indeed the first sentence of the first chapter of the book is about this very topic! Your objections are looked at and adressed there in detail. Yes, the conclusion remains open in chapter 1. That's because those are valid objections. But think about why these objections are discussed there in the first place! Why discuss them if the IC was not at least thinking about a plan that would - have those objections - you know - come up?
Isn't it rather telling that the first chapter goes into the reasoning - and the risk - inherent in the 'Nahrmahn Plan' while the last chapter contains what seems to be the start of the execution of said plan? Like an alphabet: starting with A. Ending with Z.
I mean, really: in literature books have a beginning and an end and both usually have something to do with each other. And the in-between is the story of how to get from that starting point to that end point.
And you want to tell me it is 'unlikely' that ending really is the ending that was set up throughout the book and discussed in the first chapter? Huh.

I mean I can't of course 100% disprove you. But every clue in the book (and there are quite a lot of them as I already recounted upthread so forgive me that I am not recounting them here all over again) points to this Androcles Schueler apparition really being the Androcles operation Sharleyan and Cayleb authorized one chapter before.


You can't even 50% disprove me. I'm not saying you couldn't be right I'm merely stating that don't think this was part of their plan. We know from some of the context clues about the war of the fallen that there were some individuals who were highly placed within the command staff. Schueler himself could very well have been that individual. Just because Khody went to see him and didn't return doesn't mean Schueler was responsible for his fate.

There could be plenty of things that were objectionable in the 'Nahrmahn Plan'. Doesn't mean this is it. However, I'll freely admit you could be right. Sucks that unless RFC tells us we'll have to wait like 18-24 months to find out.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Zagri   » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:38 pm

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PeterZ wrote:More accurate to say the Anglican argues against Catholics by disproving the apostolic succession, since both hold to the same succession.


Thanks, that is a much better analogy.

The other thing is that the Nahrmann Plan/Operation Androcles (if they are are the same thing) is described as funny. Everyone is quite jolly when Cayleb sanctions OA. I can think of nothing less funny or jolly than risking a violent religious schism within both churches.

And that disregards the possibility that if the Temple AI is aware of anything it's likely to be aware of this once copies of the new book reach Zion. The entire temple is going to be full of people running about shouting at each other about the visitation.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:04 pm

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Zagri wrote:
PeterZ wrote:More accurate to say the Anglican argues against Catholics by disproving the apostolic succession, since both hold to the same succession.


Thanks, that is a much better analogy.

The other thing is that the Nahrmann Plan/Operation Androcles (if they are are the same thing) is described as funny. Everyone is quite jolly when Cayleb sanctions OA. I can think of nothing less funny or jolly than risking a violent religious schism within both churches.

And that disregards the possibility that if the Temple AI is aware of anything it's likely to be aware of this once copies of the new book reach Zion. The entire temple is going to be full of people running about shouting at each other about the visitation.

Agreed. There are too many inconsistencies all around the text leading to the "Visitation" for it to be Operation Adrocles. More likely this is the Return Schueler promised the Wylsyns.

That means Operation Androcles has the be revised. It also means the Nahrahn Plan needs revision. What sorts of changes need to be made on the fly? How will those ad-libs mesh with recent events? Of course, most importantly, how will the Good Guys' TM mid-game adjustments impact their long term plans relative to the Bad Guys' TM?
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:49 am

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ywing14 wrote:
There is nothing slow about the Hologram appearing at a retreat in front of the entire order of Schueler. Slow would be working to make people openminded and change opinion over time. Not appear in front of Hundreds/Thousands of people who are part of a system that has believed something for almost 1000 years and say FYI everything you thought was a lie.


So in your logic this isn't a slow way way to change society. It's a fast way. If that were true then that would be one more argument why the IC did it and not an argument against it.

Heh.

Things aren't so easy in the real world or in Weber's worlds though. Even with a thousand witnessess: changing a millenia-old deeply rooted belief system (in nearly 1 billion people) is slow. Very slow. Never underestimate the human capacity for denial of what a person does not want to be true.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Zagri   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:03 am

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Bruno Behrends wrote:
ywing14 wrote:
There is nothing slow about the Hologram appearing at a retreat in front of the entire order of Schueler. Slow would be working to make people openminded and change opinion over time. Not appear in front of Hundreds/Thousands of people who are part of a system that has believed something for almost 1000 years and say FYI everything you thought was a lie.


So in your logic this isn't a slow way way to change society. It's a fast way. If that were true then that would be one more argument why the IC did it and not an argument against it.

Heh.

Things aren't so easy in the real world or in Weber's worlds though. Even with a thousand witnessess: changing a millenia-old deeply rooted belief system (in nearly 1 billion people) is slow. Very slow. Never underestimate the human capacity for denial of what a person does not want to be true.


In Chapter 1 Nahrmann tells Merlin:

“It’s going to be bad enough without our injecting religion back into the mess by attacking Church doctrine in the middle of it,” he repeated, and chuckled mirthlessly. “Besides, the one thing we absolutely can’t afford is to reopen that whole can of worms about demonic influence on Charisian innovation.”
“Which only leaves the nefarious, unscrupulous, underhanded ‘Nahrmahn Plan.’”

Short of dropping 100, 000 copies each of the Bible, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the US Declaration of Independence, and the Safehold colonial charter conveniently at the front door of the Temple, can you envisage a more direct attack on Church doctrine than faking an archangelic visitation and a new book of scripture?
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by isaac_newton   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:28 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:Remember way back that it was mentioned that someone ELSE was looking for the Key of Schueler and part of the reason Paityr was sent to Charis...not only to get away from Clyntahn, but far from the mysterious searcher!


Sorry, can't recall which book that was in :/


That was never resolved was it - just an in passing throwaway...

I've wondered for a while if that was a false lead or something really interesting!
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:56 am

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isaac_newton wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:Remember way back that it was mentioned that someone ELSE was looking for the Key of Schueler and part of the reason Paityr was sent to Charis...not only to get away from Clyntahn, but far from the mysterious searcher!


Sorry, can't recall which book that was in :/


That was never resolved was it - just an in passing throwaway...

I've wondered for a while if that was a false lead or something really interesting!


Or maybe just the line that RFC decided eventually not to pursue.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by TangoLima   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:11 pm

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Binary set.
Either it is Scheuler or it is Naharman & Owl etc.
DW of course will have a third option or more.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:59 pm

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Bruno Behrends wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:[snip]
The avatar would a holoogram, but how exactly would Charis install the tech to produce it?
[snip]

The same way all those pamphlets kept turning up on the walls all over Zion - by stealthy remote. Note that the scene does not take place inside the temple. Most likely the cathedral was selected instead in order to avoid the
temple sensors.

There is a difference between stealthy remotes that can tack broadsheets on walls and stealthy remotes that can install sophisticated tech in Temples. Sorry, but I just don't see it occurring. Especially since the church in question will likely have people in it, like sextons, at all times. Remotes can tack broadsheets on walls at night when nobody is looking. Working indoors in occupied buildings is a bit more difficult.
DMcCunney wrote:[snip]
Another reason I doubt this is Narhman's work is that Charis and the Inner Circle have taken pains from the beginning to only say things that can be demonstrated to be true.
[snip]

That's nearly but not quite correct: Their modus operandi is to not lie.

And what immediately jumped out of the page at me in the 'archangel apparition' scene is that the 'archangel' takes care to not tell a single lie. Every sentence is true. Very telling IMO.

Fair enough. But not lying puts constraints on what you can say, because whatever you say can be verified after the fact, and if you make stuff up out of whole cloth you put yourself at grave risk. I really don't see the Inner Circle going that far. Anything they have put out in the past has been based in what they know through their tech. This gets into areas that they don't and can't know, and I just can't see them making statements based on stuff they don't know.
In fact he does not even claim to be an archangel. He just lets the audience draw their own conclusions.Much like Merlin and the Sejin status ascribed to him that he himself never claims.

He claims to be Schueler. Those present (especially the Archbishop and the priests) recognize him as Schueler because Schueler's likeness exists in various places like the Temple. Does the fact that he does not say he is Archangel Schueler really make a difference? Everyone seeing him in that context will know who he is, and attach the title automatically.
The 'archangel' also does not state who specifically destroyed Shan Wei. In fact he is careful with his wording: 'she was betrayed by the betrayer of the plan'. No name.

The one and only time a name falls - Chihiro - the apparition just says "... it was not Shan-wei who fell but Chihiro who lied."

I suspect his Testimony will go into more detail. No, he doesn't state who destroyed Shan Wei, but for present purposes, the fact that he stated she was not the great evil demonized as "The Mother of Lies" and cast in the role of Safehold's Satan will be quite enough to be going on with. That will tie the Temple into Gordian Knots when they hear about it. Precisely who did destroy her is a question for another day.

(And it's the contents of his Testimony that make me really doubt this was Narhmann's doing. Given what the Inner Circle don't (and can't) know about the events in question which happened nearly a thousand years prior, just what could they say in a forged Testimony that wouldn't come back to bite them hard?)
______
Dennis
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:16 am

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Zagri wrote:
In Chapter 1 Nahrmann tells Merlin:

“It’s going to be bad enough without our injecting religion back into the mess by attacking Church doctrine in the middle of it,” he repeated, and chuckled mirthlessly. “Besides, the one thing we absolutely can’t afford is to reopen that whole can of worms about demonic influence on Charisian innovation.”
“Which only leaves the nefarious, unscrupulous, underhanded ‘Nahrmahn Plan.’”

Short of dropping 100, 000 copies each of the Bible, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the US Declaration of Independence, and the Safehold colonial charter conveniently at the front door of the Temple, can you envisage a more direct attack on Church doctrine than faking an archangelic visitation and a new book of scripture?


This kind of mis-conclusion comes from taking something out of context and then trying to use it as a clue. Read the whole chapter and especially the text following (and explaining) the part you cite!

On the follwing pages in the same chapter it is explained that the part you cite above is about the Inner Circle's strategy during the 15-year period from the beginning of the book until the year 915! (the first of the possible 'Archangel return' dates.)

And no: I am not making this up. In fact this point is explicitly made in that same chapter:

'So assuming the earlier return date ( the year 915 that is, exlanation by me), the inner circle had fifteen years to spread Charis-style industrialization as broadly as possible around the planet. ... Nothing could be allowed to interfere with that process, and that was the reason, more even than the staggering potential casualties of a renewed Jihad, why any headlong assault on the Church of God Awating's fundamental doctrine had to be avoided ... or at least postponed. ..."

There you have it: They avoid - or more specifically postpone - a direct assault on church doctrine only during the 15-year period until the first possible 'archangel' return date.

The text goes on:

If 915 came and went without any angelic reappearance, they'd have another eighty-five years to work on doctrinal revolutions."

They plan to work on doctrinal revolutions! But only after the year 915 has passed without angelic reappearance.

Now look at the timeline for the last two chapters:

The year 915 passes without angelic reappearance. After it has passed Cayleb and Sharleyan (in the second-to-last chapter of the book) authorize what they call 'the final phase of the Nahrmahn plan' in february 916.

So the timeline fits exactly to the setup of the plan from chapter one.

And look at the name of the plan: We know the 'spreading of industrialization' plan was phase 1 of the Nahrmahn plan. We can - indeed we must - conclude that the 'final phase' of the Nahrmahn plan has to be something other besides continuing industrialization. That's because it would not make sense to have two phases of the plan if both phases were the same.

So the 'final phase' is something else. Something new.

And we get told in that second-to-last chapter of the book that said 'final phase' begins with an operation that is codenamed 'Operation Androcles'. Since Androcles is Schueler's first name we have reason to assume that the 'final phase' of the Nahrmahn plan may have something to do with Schueler. (Even more so because DW felt the necessity to hit us over the head with Schueler's first name by repeatedly mentioning it earlier in the book.)

And lo and behold: in the final chapter, one month after Cayleb and Sharleyan give the authorization the Schueler apparition does appear.

It all fits.
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