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Snippet #14

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Snippet #14
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:04 pm

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Methinks, FB, that the Seijin Publishing Network will make prodigious use of newsletters.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by layman   » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:13 am

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In Amazon "Look Inside!" this snipped end on page 139
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by Vinea   » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:55 am

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Lets see...

Rainbow Waters as Liu Bei and his area will be the Kingdom of Shu. Descendant of the Emperor Jing, popular with serfs, excellent PR, etc. Better army than Liu Bei had, Probably won't need to spend a lot of time running or losing and most likely to be the successor Emperor as it stands

North Wind Blowing or Summer Flowers as Cao Cao, both appearing to be angling for power behind the throne approach but given that the narrative perspective has been from NWB and not SF I'm going to assume he's the current front runner for Cao Cao. Emperor Zhyou-Zhwo has more power than the figurehead last Emperors of the Han...but nothing an infant heir and poison can't cure...and eventually the Kingdom of Wei.

Star Rising as Sun Jian...a lower level noble/general that managed to quell rebellion in his own region and who's sons parlayed that Into the Kingdom of Wu.

Serf Rebellion as the Yellow Turbans. SyngPu and HuSan seem like decent fellows. Hopefully it turns out better for the in the end. Probably not.

Yah, it won't play out like Three Kingdoms with Charis involved but it should be amusing to see where it goes. This was, probably not coincidently, one of the periods of more rapid technological advancement in Chinese history...not to mention one of the bloodiest.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by dobriennm   » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:44 am

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Vinea wrote:Lets see...

Rainbow Waters as Liu Bei and his area will be the Kingdom of Shu. Descendant of the Emperor Jing, popular with serfs, excellent PR, etc. Better army than Liu Bei had, Probably won't need to spend a lot of time running or losing and most likely to be the successor Emperor as it stands

North Wind Blowing or Summer Flowers as Cao Cao, both appearing to be angling for power behind the throne approach but given that the narrative perspective has been from NWB and not SF I'm going to assume he's the current front runner for Cao Cao. Emperor Zhyou-Zhwo has more power than the figurehead last Emperors of the Han...but nothing an infant heir and poison can't cure...and eventually the Kingdom of Wei.

Star Rising as Sun Jian...a lower level noble/general that managed to quell rebellion in his own region and who's sons parlayed that Into the Kingdom of Wu.

Serf Rebellion as the Yellow Turbans. SyngPu and HuSan seem like decent fellows. Hopefully it turns out better for the in the end. Probably not.

Yah, it won't play out like Three Kingdoms with Charis involved but it should be amusing to see where it goes. This was, probably not coincidently, one of the periods of more rapid technological advancement in Chinese history...not to mention one of the bloodiest.


Yea, but be careful of using historical parallels with David Weber. He likes to use them as misdirection, hiding where he really intends to go.

Good example is the Honorverse where Rob S. Pierre (Robespierre) overthrows the Haven Government and starts a reign of terror (i.e., looks like the French Revolution complete with guillotines and potential Napoleons). Not the way the Honorverse went. And the Author said he intentionally misdirected everyone in some posts he made in the past year.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:58 am

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Vinea wrote:Lets see...

Rainbow Waters as Liu Bei and his area will be the Kingdom of Shu. Descendant of the Emperor Jing, popular with serfs, excellent PR, etc. Better army than Liu Bei had, Probably won't need to spend a lot of time running or losing and most likely to be the successor Emperor as it stands

North Wind Blowing or Summer Flowers as Cao Cao, both appearing to be angling for power behind the throne approach but given that the narrative perspective has been from NWB and not SF I'm going to assume he's the current front runner for Cao Cao. Emperor Zhyou-Zhwo has more power than the figurehead last Emperors of the Han...but nothing an infant heir and poison can't cure...and eventually the Kingdom of Wei.

Star Rising as Sun Jian...a lower level noble/general that managed to quell rebellion in his own region and who's sons parlayed that Into the Kingdom of Wu.

Serf Rebellion as the Yellow Turbans. SyngPu and HuSan seem like decent fellows. Hopefully it turns out better for the in the end. Probably not.

Yah, it won't play out like Three Kingdoms with Charis involved but it should be amusing to see where it goes. This was, probably not coincidently, one of the periods of more rapid technological advancement in Chinese history...not to mention one of the bloodiest.

This is shaping up a bit more like the Low Countries rebellion against the Spanish. Boisseau is looking like Belgium and Rainbow Waters is very much the William of Orange analogue. William, a converted Catholic, launched his rebellion is response to a private agreement between the Kings of Spain and France to violently purge the Protestants in Christendom, starting with France and the Netherlands. I also see Snow Peak trying to be the Duke of Alba. Good luck!

The principal difference this time around is that William the Silent is much better armed and financed. It is Alba that has to invade rather than William. Given hints from RFC regarding Norther Stene Province, one suspects Snow Peak will use Fairstock Bay to launch his invasion. Not sure Malasanth is all that rebellious (I believe it is part of the empire).

I can see the military and political shifts resembling the
Three Kingdoms period with the driving motives straight from the Dutch Rebellion. I doubt either template will be copied closely as the geography of Harchong is way different than either China or Coastal Western Europe. Also, neither period had a third party controlling the seas to the degree Charis controls it on Safehold. Spain could march into the Netherlands if France allowed it or ship in troops to loyal areas in Belgium. South Harchong doesn't have either option. It has to sail its forces past the ICN or cross many more national borders to get to Northern Harchong.

I can see North Harchong following the Three Kingdoms template as it coalesces into one polity. I can't see the conflict with South Harchong resembling that period in Chinese history. The North and South Harchong conflict resembles the Dutch Rebellion more closely. Also, the Dutch rebellion launched the 80 Years War. What better harbinger for the Return is there?
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by Vinea   » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:57 pm

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Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:47 pm

PeterZ wrote:
Vinea wrote:Lets see...

Rainbow Waters as Liu Bei and his area will be the Kingdom of Shu. Descendant of the Emperor Jing, popular with serfs, excellent PR, etc. Better army than Liu Bei had, Probably won't need to spend a lot of time running or losing and most likely to be the successor Emperor as it stands

North Wind Blowing or Summer Flowers as Cao Cao, both appearing to be angling for power behind the throne approach but given that the narrative perspective has been from NWB and not SF I'm going to assume he's the current front runner for Cao Cao. Emperor Zhyou-Zhwo has more power than the figurehead last Emperors of the Han...but nothing an infant heir and poison can't cure...and eventually the Kingdom of Wei.

Star Rising as Sun Jian...a lower level noble/general that managed to quell rebellion in his own region and who's sons parlayed that Into the Kingdom of Wu.

Serf Rebellion as the Yellow Turbans. SyngPu and HuSan seem like decent fellows. Hopefully it turns out better for the in the end. Probably not.

Yah, it won't play out like Three Kingdoms with Charis involved but it should be amusing to see where it goes. This was, probably not coincidently, one of the periods of more rapid technological advancement in Chinese history...not to mention one of the bloodiest.

This is shaping up a bit more like the Low Countries rebellion against the Spanish. Boisseau is looking like Belgium and Rainbow Waters is very much the William of Orange analogue. William, a converted Catholic, launched his rebellion is response to a private agreement between the Kings of Spain and France to violently purge the Protestants in Christendom, starting with France and the Netherlands. I also see Snow Peak trying to be the Duke of Alba. Good luck!

The principal difference this time around is that William the Silent is much better armed and financed. It is Alba that has to invade rather than William. Given hints from RFC regarding Norther Stene Province, one suspects Snow Peak will use Fairstock Bay to launch his invasion. Not sure Malasanth is all that rebellious (I believe it is part of the empire).

I can see the military and political shifts resembling the
Three Kingdoms period with the driving motives straight from the Dutch Rebellion. I doubt either template will be copied closely as the geography of Harchong is way different than either China or Coastal Western Europe. Also, neither period had a third party controlling the seas to the degree Charis controls it on Safehold. Spain could march into the Netherlands if France allowed it or ship in troops to loyal areas in Belgium. South Harchong doesn't have either option. It has to sail its forces past the ICN or cross many more national borders to get to Northern Harchong.

I can see North Harchong following the Three Kingdoms template as it coalesces into one polity. I can't see the conflict with South Harchong resembling that period in Chinese history. The North and South Harchong conflict resembles the Dutch Rebellion more closely. Also, the Dutch rebellion launched the 80 Years War. What better harbinger for the Return is there?


As I said, it won't play out like the Three Kingdoms, any more than Haven played out the French Revolution...but why draw from European historical scenarios with very different underlying factors and stick it in China where culturally the behaviors, stress point and outcomes will differ? Why describe a Chinese sub-plot using a Eurocentric mental model when there are sufficiently rich source material from that culture? And why should any of these characters be modeled on historical European leaders vs historical Chinese ones?

So I hope the rfc did use asian source material vs European ones for this sub-plot even if it diverges greatly because someone drops a rock on top of Rainbow Waters and snufs out his Shu Kingdom before it fully forms. Even having half of a Three Kingdoms setting as a misdirection would be nice given that it takes place in Harchong.

Whomever Rainbow Waters is, IMHO he shouldn't be a William of Orange analogue.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:24 pm

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Vinea wrote:
PeterZ wrote:This is shaping up a bit more like the Low Countries rebellion against the Spanish. Boisseau is looking like Belgium and Rainbow Waters is very much the William of Orange analogue. William, a converted Catholic, launched his rebellion is response to a private agreement between the Kings of Spain and France to violently purge the Protestants in Christendom, starting with France and the Netherlands. I also see Snow Peak trying to be the Duke of Alba. Good luck!

The principal difference this time around is that William the Silent is much better armed and financed. It is Alba that has to invade rather than William. Given hints from RFC regarding Norther Stene Province, one suspects Snow Peak will use Fairstock Bay to launch his invasion. Not sure Malasanth is all that rebellious (I believe it is part of the empire).

I can see the military and political shifts resembling the
Three Kingdoms period with the driving motives straight from the Dutch Rebellion. I doubt either template will be copied closely as the geography of Harchong is way different than either China or Coastal Western Europe. Also, neither period had a third party controlling the seas to the degree Charis controls it on Safehold. Spain could march into the Netherlands if France allowed it or ship in troops to loyal areas in Belgium. South Harchong doesn't have either option. It has to sail its forces past the ICN or cross many more national borders to get to Northern Harchong.

I can see North Harchong following the Three Kingdoms template as it coalesces into one polity. I can't see the conflict with South Harchong resembling that period in Chinese history. The North and South Harchong conflict resembles the Dutch Rebellion more closely. Also, the Dutch rebellion launched the 80 Years War. What better harbinger for the Return is there?


As I said, it won't play out like the Three Kingdoms, any more than Haven played out the French Revolution...but why draw from European historical scenarios with very different underlying factors and stick it in China where culturally the behaviors, stress point and outcomes will differ? Why describe a Chinese sub-plot using a Eurocentric mental model when there are sufficiently rich source material from that culture? And why should any of these characters be modeled on historical European leaders vs historical Chinese ones?

So I hope the rfc did use asian source material vs European ones for this sub-plot even if it diverges greatly because someone drops a rock on top of Rainbow Waters and snufs out his Shu Kingdom before it fully forms. Even having half of a Three Kingdoms setting as a misdirection would be nice given that it takes place in Harchong.

Whomever Rainbow Waters is, IMHO he shouldn't be a William of Orange analogue.


The reason to use a eurocentric model is because the Safehold conflict is about religious reform. The Chinese period of the Three Kingdoms is not driven by religious strife. The drivers of the outcomes in a secular struggle is different than one driven by a religious struggle. The political drivers are better captured using the 80 Years' War than in the Three Kingdom's period. That said, Rainbow Waters will face more of the sorts of issues William of Orange faced than any one of the three rulers in that period in China.

Pacifying the region is the easy part. Negotiating the survival of the resultant polity is the true challenge. That task requires skills similar to those of solving the religiously driven politics of 16th century Europe. Not the same thing as solving the problems associated with a culture that will shortly invent the wheelbarrow.

Using the tricornered struggle in Northern Harchong may be apt, but very limited. Using the prelude to the 8o Years' War as the template seems much more apt for the broader struggle.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by cnrd22   » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:42 pm

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PeterZ wrote: That said, Rainbow Waters will face more of the sorts of issues William of Orange faced than any one of the three rulers in that period in China.

I think it will be Wind Song who will face those challenges as I do not see Rainbow Waters surviving much longer as age and stress will most likely catch up with him before March 916 (the end period of TFT)
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:48 pm

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cnrd22 wrote:
PeterZ wrote: That said, Rainbow Waters will face more of the sorts of issues William of Orange faced than any one of the three rulers in that period in China.

I think it will be Wind Song who will face those challenges as I do not see Rainbow Waters surviving much longer as age and stress will most likely catch up with him before March 916 (the end period of TFT)

That could be. Of course, OWL may have given him nanotechnology treatments. I have no clue if this happened, just sayin'.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by Vinea   » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:27 pm

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Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:47 pm

PeterZ wrote:
The reason to use a eurocentric model is because the Safehold conflict is about religious reform. The Chinese period of the Three Kingdoms is not driven by religious strife. The drivers of the outcomes in a secular struggle is different than one driven by a religious struggle. The political drivers are better captured using the 80 Years' War than in the Three Kingdom's period. That said, Rainbow Waters will face more of the sorts of issues William of Orange faced than any one of the three rulers in that period in China.

Pacifying the region is the easy part. Negotiating the survival of the resultant polity is the true challenge. That task requires skills similar to those of solving the religiously driven politics of 16th century Europe. Not the same thing as solving the problems associated with a culture that will shortly invent the wheelbarrow.

Using the tricornered struggle in Northern Harchong may be apt, but very limited. Using the prelude to the 8o Years' War as the template seems much more apt for the broader struggle.


The Yellow Turban peasant rebellion was couched in the context of religion (Taoist with a smattering of shamanism) but that’s neither here nor there. The Safehold conflict isn’t over religious reform but over the subjugation of the remainder of the human race under a religious lie. This isn’t a historical religious war between two Christian sects. Restoration of human race to the technological level required to win the greater war will make it more and more secular. Especially if real human religions are re-introduced and take root requiring religious freedom. “Reformation” of the Safehold Church is like reformation of an Elvis impersonator.

Also, the current peasant/serf rebellion isn’t driven by religion but by the secular policies of the Harchong nobility. That there is are external entities that will stick their oars in makes it differ from the Three Kingdoms era and more like late Qing dynasty than late Han (substitute the Taiping Rebellion for the Yellow Turbans) but culturally the feel should be different than a European scenario. Especially since the Harchongese were designed that way when they could have had a monolithic Eurocentric culture for the whole planet programmed into the colonists.

Why bother creating this construct as an author if not to have a different canvas than the European one on which to paint? That may be a bit meta but there’s no reason to create a Chinese background to tell yet another European story.
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