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Snippet #14

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Re: Snippet #14
Post by dobriennm   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:17 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
Earl Rainbow Waters had crossed the frontier into Maddox from the Episcopate of St. Bahrnabai at the head of almost a quarter million men two months earlier.

********

And there were persistent rumors—rumors North Wind Blowing’s agents had confirmed, although he had not yet passed the information to the emperor or the rest of the council—that another quarter million of the Mighty Host’s veterans were flowing into eastern Langhorne and Stene under Rainbow Water’s nephew, the Baron of Wind Song, with similar results.



Was re-reading this snippet and noticed this part.

Looking at a map of North Harchong. Maddox (where Rainbow Waters "invaded") lies directly between Langhorne and Stene (where Baron of Wind Song "invaded"). Langhorne lies almot directly west of the temple, Maddox is to the south, and Sten south of Maddox and extends all the way to the Gulf of Dohlar (on my map).

Which doesn't make sense to me since the Baron's forces are separated by at least a thousand miles. How can he command both widely separated forces? Effective command and control would be extremely difficult even with the signal towers and would ultimately really depend on your field commanders. It sounds more like the Baron is back at some nodal position exercising only nominal command.

And it makes sense that Rainbow Waters would go for Maddox since Chaing-Wu and Tiegelkamp lie west and southwest, respectively, of Maddox. And that's where he's needed most.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:09 pm

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dobriennm wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
Earl Rainbow Waters had crossed the frontier into Maddox from the Episcopate of St. Bahrnabai at the head of almost a quarter million men two months earlier.

********

And there were persistent rumors—rumors North Wind Blowing’s agents had confirmed, although he had not yet passed the information to the emperor or the rest of the council—that another quarter million of the Mighty Host’s veterans were flowing into eastern Langhorne and Stene under Rainbow Water’s nephew, the Baron of Wind Song, with similar results.



Was re-reading this snippet and noticed this part.

Looking at a map of North Harchong. Maddox (where Rainbow Waters "invaded") lies directly between Langhorne and Stene (where Baron of Wind Song "invaded"). Langhorne lies almot directly west of the temple, Maddox is to the south, and Sten south of Maddox and extends all the way to the Gulf of Dohlar (on my map).

Which doesn't make sense to me since the Baron's forces are separated by at least a thousand miles. How can he command both widely separated forces? Effective command and control would be extremely difficult even with the signal towers and would ultimately really depend on your field commanders. It sounds more like the Baron is back at some nodal position exercising only nominal command.

And it makes sense that Rainbow Waters would go for Maddox since Chaing-Wu and Tiegelkamp lie west and southwest, respectively, of Maddox. And that's where he's needed most.

I'm not sure what you are not understanding. Rainbow Waters and Windsong control two forces headed in two directions. Neither is attacking a coherent enemy. They are pacifying regions in chaos. Rainbow Waters gave Windsong a prioritized list of goals and let him manage the how.

Communications would be fine to have but not necessary for the tasks at hand. Now, that's not saying OWL, Nahrmahn and the seijin network won't help communication between the various elements of these forces.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by dobriennm   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:17 pm

dobriennm
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:44 pm

dobriennm wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
Earl Rainbow Waters had crossed the frontier into Maddox from the Episcopate of St. Bahrnabai at the head of almost a quarter million men two months earlier.

********

And there were persistent rumors—rumors North Wind Blowing’s agents had confirmed, although he had not yet passed the information to the emperor or the rest of the council—that another quarter million of the Mighty Host’s veterans were flowing into eastern Langhorne and Stene under Rainbow Water’s nephew, the Baron of Wind Song, with similar results.



Was re-reading this snippet and noticed this part.

Looking at a map of North Harchong. Maddox (where Rainbow Waters "invaded") lies directly between Langhorne and Stene (where Baron of Wind Song "invaded"). Langhorne lies almot directly west of the temple, Maddox is to the south, and Sten south of Maddox and extends all the way to the Gulf of Dohlar (on my map).

Which doesn't make sense to me since the Baron's forces are separated by at least a thousand miles. How can he command both widely separated forces? Effective command and control would be extremely difficult even with the signal towers and would ultimately really depend on your field commanders. It sounds more like the Baron is back at some nodal position exercising only nominal command.

And it makes sense that Rainbow Waters would go for Maddox since Chaing-Wu and Tiegelkamp lie west and southwest, respectively, of Maddox. And that's where he's needed most.


PeterZ wrote:
I'm not sure what you are not understanding. Rainbow Waters and Windsong control two forces headed in two directions. Neither is attacking a coherent enemy. They are pacifying regions in chaos. Rainbow Waters gave Windsong a prioritized list of goals and let him manage the how.

Communications would be fine to have but not necessary for the tasks at hand. Now, that's not saying OWL, Nahrmahn and the seijin network won't help communication between the various elements of these forces.


There aren't 2 forces, there are 3, 3 separate armies going west. One controlled by Rainbow Waters (the center one), two controlled by Baron of Wind Song (one north of Rainbow Waters, one south of Rainbow Waters).

It simply sounds like a coordination nightmare for the Baron. He has 2 separate armies completely separated by more than a thousand miles who can't coordinate together.

And don't say Rainbow Waters can just give orders to the two separate armies north and south of his army. That's not how command works. If he wants to do that, Rainbow Waters has to tell the Baron what to do and then the Baron tells each of his separate armies what to do.

Think of the semaphore lag time (if semaphore lines even exist in some of the more backward regions).

The Baron is coordinating two separate lines of advance. Depending on where he is, the command and control loop time could easily be days. Its not like the Baron can just say "Go forth and Conquer". There are negotiations with local towns, nobility, serfs to placate.

I just don't see how the Baron is commanding two such widely separated armies
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:57 am

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Wind Sing is likely moving into the two regions sequentially. The worst of the uprising is happening in Central Harchong. Rainbow Waters is headed that way. Wind Song is pacifying the areas before they get too bad. Perhaps RW and WS are tying to give the serfs hope that reforms are going to happen to prevent atrocities.

That makes sense to me.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:55 am

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PeterZ wrote:Wind Sing is likely moving into the two regions sequentially. The worst of the uprising is happening in Central Harchong. Rainbow Waters is headed that way. Wind Song is pacifying the areas before they get too bad. Perhaps RW and WS are tying to give the serfs hope that reforms are going to happen to prevent atrocities.

That makes sense to me.



Uh, guys, you did notice that there were rumors about what Wind Song is up to? You know --- as in reports being collated in a non-electronic world at a time of enormous upheaval and confusion and "confirmed" by the agents of a guy they know is desperate (and pays well) for any "reliable information" and who has every reason to assume the worst and wonder if his head will remain attached to the rest of him if it turns out said reports are accurate? That sort of report. :roll: :P

In fact, Windsong is operating detached from his uncle. And, in fact, there are troops loyal to Rainbow Waters in Langhorne and Maddox and there have been reports of troops loyal to him in extreme northern Stene. Whether or not there are troops loyal to him in Stene is another matter, and one I choose not to comment upon at this time. (There are, in fact, some later developments in Stene which are mildly important < :twisted: > and which tend to hinge on whether or not Rainbow Waters has people there.)


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by dobriennm   » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:43 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Wind Sing is likely moving into the two regions sequentially. The worst of the uprising is happening in Central Harchong. Rainbow Waters is headed that way. Wind Song is pacifying the areas before they get too bad. Perhaps RW and WS are tying to give the serfs hope that reforms are going to happen to prevent atrocities.

That makes sense to me.



Uh, guys, you did notice that there were rumors about what Wind Song is up to? You know --- as in reports being collated in a non-electronic world at a time of enormous upheaval and confusion and "confirmed" by the agents of a guy they know is desperate (and pays well) for any "reliable information" and who has every reason to assume the worst and wonder if his head will remain attached to the rest of him if it turns out said reports are accurate? That sort of report. :roll: :P

In fact, Windsong is operating detached from his uncle. And, in fact, there are troops loyal to Rainbow Waters in Langhorne and Maddox and there have been reports of troops loyal to him in extreme northern Stene. Whether or not there are troops loyal to him in Stene is another matter, and one I choose not to comment upon at this time. (There are, in fact, some later developments in Stene which are mildly important < :twisted: > and which tend to hinge on whether or not Rainbow Waters has people there.)


Hah!

I knew if the children started fighting an adult would step in to break it up! ;)

This makes more sense with a line of advance in the north (Langhorne) and one in Maddox with potentially some overlap into northern Stene.

And I did catch the fact that it was rumors, not actual confirmed sightings/intelligence. Attributing who's in command where is probably difficult to do in the chaotic situation in North Harchong.

I probably should have started by saying the information "thought bubble" from North Wind Blowing didn't make sense from a command and control perspective. You wouldn't have the same commander essentially commanding the right and left flanking forces.

I guess the point, obviously, is to take "information" presented by a high ranking Harchongese bureaucrat with no military experience with a "block" of salt. :lol:
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:22 am

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dobriennm wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:

Uh, guys, you did notice that there were rumors about what Wind Song is up to? You know --- as in reports being collated in a non-electronic world at a time of enormous upheaval and confusion and "confirmed" by the agents of a guy they know is desperate (and pays well) for any "reliable information" and who has every reason to assume the worst and wonder if his head will remain attached to the rest of him if it turns out said reports are accurate? That sort of report. :roll: :P

In fact, Windsong is operating detached from his uncle. And, in fact, there are troops loyal to Rainbow Waters in Langhorne and Maddox and there have been reports of troops loyal to him in extreme northern Stene. Whether or not there are troops loyal to him in Stene is another matter, and one I choose not to comment upon at this time. (There are, in fact, some later developments in Stene which are mildly important < :twisted: > and which tend to hinge on whether or not Rainbow Waters has people there.)


Hah!

I knew if the children started fighting an adult would step in to break it up! ;)

This makes more sense with a line of advance in the north (Langhorne) and one in Maddox with potentially some overlap into northern Stene.

And I did catch the fact that it was rumors, not actual confirmed sightings/intelligence. Attributing who's in command where is probably difficult to do in the chaotic situation in North Harchong.

I probably should have started by saying the information "thought bubble" from North Wind Blowing didn't make sense from a command and control perspective. You wouldn't have the same commander essentially commanding the right and left flanking forces.

I guess the point, obviously, is to take "information" presented by a high ranking Harchongese bureaucrat with no military experience with a "block" of salt. :lol:

None of this speculation would be necessary had the Harchongese been wise enough to employ their own seijin network. That would have made the readers' job much easier. :oops:
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by evilauthor   » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:08 pm

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PeterZ wrote:None of this speculation would be necessary had the Harchongese been wise enough to employ their own seijin network. That would have made the readers' job much easier. :oops:


Where are they going to get seijinn or seijinn trainers willing to work with them?
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:17 pm

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evilauthor wrote:
PeterZ wrote:None of this speculation would be necessary had the Harchongese been wise enough to employ their own seijin network. That would have made the readers' job much easier. :oops:


Where are they going to get seijinn or seijinn trainers willing to work with them?

Piffle! Those are just a bunch of excuses derived from a mindset bereft of the proper amount of desire to innovate!

I suspect that Merlin et al will rectify that shortcoming in North Harchong soon now.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by FriarBob   » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:31 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I suspect that Merlin et al will rectify that shortcoming in North Harchong soon now.


I very strongly expect they will. But how will it get started? Merlin can't *physically* show up in person all the time. Neither can Nimue. Either can of course show up in any other guise they need to, but there are still limits. So dropped off notes are simply going to HAVE to get started somehow.

Merlin has already shown up in person so he obviously could again very easily. Maybe he does and explains. For that matter, perhaps he already explained that it would happen anyway. But if not...

A rock thrown through a window worked so well the last time... but then again with the next province over in outright chaos and even MORE legitimate threat of assassination in this one that might inspire a bit of, well... overreaction. Plus the winter cold of Harchong makes me wonder if they even HAVE those sorts of windows. If they do, they are no doubt much thicker (and also harder to replace after they get broken).

Still, wouldn't be shocked to find it reused. It worked after all. But my money is on the MWW coming up with something even better.

Trying to figure out what it might be is where I come up short. Note left on the doorstep? Could get covered with snow and lost. Dropped down a chimney? Could work if there is no fire set ATM, but if not could -- almost certainly would -- fall in the fire. Pinned to the door? Problem is "what with" and the only solid device strong enough to hold it would be a knife and that brings us at least partly back to the problems of the rock through the window.

Best bet for me -- again assuming any 'system introduction' is needed at all -- is probably a local who encounters someone he doesn't know and is handed a note and *shown* sufficient money to guarantee he wants the payoff after a successful delivery. Of course the payoff would be left in his house instead of delivered in person. But it would probably work.
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