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Snippet #14

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Snippet #14
Post by phillies   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:52 pm

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Curiously, the author is setting up a secret set of potentially evil rulers far more omniscient, far more omnipotent, and far more long-lived than poor Clyntahn and his marginally effective Inquisitors.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:54 pm

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phillies wrote:Curiously, the author is setting up a secret set of potentially evil rulers far more omniscient, far more omnipotent, and far more long-lived than poor Clyntahn and his marginally effective Inquisitors.

Please elaborate.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by Louis R   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:37 pm

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You're forgetting the Spanish Road, which the French could _not_ cut without going to war with Spain, the HRE and several of their allies. The military analogy with the 80 Years War is very weak indeed.


PeterZ wrote:< snip >
I can see the military and political shifts resembling the
Three Kingdoms period with the driving motives straight from the Dutch Rebellion. I doubt either template will be copied closely as the geography of Harchong is way different than either China or Coastal Western Europe. Also, neither period had a third party controlling the seas to the degree Charis controls it on Safehold. Spain could march into the Netherlands if France allowed it or ship in troops to loyal areas in Belgium. South Harchong doesn't have either option. It has to sail its forces past the ICN or cross many more national borders to get to Northern Harchong.

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Re: Snippet #14
Post by Louis R   » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:04 pm

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Somebody dropping a rock on Rainbow Waters would only increase his correspondence with Orange: William the Silent was assassinated, you will recall [one of the bigger own goals in Spanish history, that].

And both of you are probably laying too much emphasis on the religious elements in the European wars of religion - in all cases, that element, while significant, was as much as anything a pretext for letting blood for the standard political and economic - and to some degree cultural - reasons. In Harchong, the primary driver is economics, although economic change will be inseparable from cultural, prompting the changees to dig their heels in even further.

And if you _must_ have a Chinese analogy, it looks to me very much as if the better fit is with the end of the Northern Song.

Vinea wrote:
PeterZ wrote:This is shaping up a bit more like the Low Countries rebellion against the Spanish. Boisseau is looking like Belgium and Rainbow Waters is very much the William of Orange analogue. William, a converted Catholic, launched his rebellion is response to a private agreement between the Kings of Spain and France to violently purge the Protestants in Christendom, starting with France and the Netherlands. I also see Snow Peak trying to be the Duke of Alba. Good luck!

The principal difference this time around is that William the Silent is much better armed and financed. It is Alba that has to invade rather than William. Given hints from RFC regarding Norther Stene Province, one suspects Snow Peak will use Fairstock Bay to launch his invasion. Not sure Malasanth is all that rebellious (I believe it is part of the empire).

I can see the military and political shifts resembling the
Three Kingdoms period with the driving motives straight from the Dutch Rebellion. I doubt either template will be copied closely as the geography of Harchong is way different than either China or Coastal Western Europe. Also, neither period had a third party controlling the seas to the degree Charis controls it on Safehold. Spain could march into the Netherlands if France allowed it or ship in troops to loyal areas in Belgium. South Harchong doesn't have either option. It has to sail its forces past the ICN or cross many more national borders to get to Northern Harchong.

I can see North Harchong following the Three Kingdoms template as it coalesces into one polity. I can't see the conflict with South Harchong resembling that period in Chinese history. The North and South Harchong conflict resembles the Dutch Rebellion more closely. Also, the Dutch rebellion launched the 80 Years War. What better harbinger for the Return is there?


As I said, it won't play out like the Three Kingdoms, any more than Haven played out the French Revolution...but why draw from European historical scenarios with very different underlying factors and stick it in China where culturally the behaviors, stress point and outcomes will differ? Why describe a Chinese sub-plot using a Eurocentric mental model when there are sufficiently rich source material from that culture? And why should any of these characters be modeled on historical European leaders vs historical Chinese ones?

So I hope the rfc did use asian source material vs European ones for this sub-plot even if it diverges greatly because someone drops a rock on top of Rainbow Waters and snufs out his Shu Kingdom before it fully forms. Even having half of a Three Kingdoms setting as a misdirection would be nice given that it takes place in Harchong.

Whomever Rainbow Waters is, IMHO he shouldn't be a William of Orange analogue.
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Re: Snippet #14
Post by cnrd22   » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:40 am

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Louis R wrote:Somebody dropping a rock on Rainbow Waters would only increase his correspondence with Orange: William the Silent was assassinated, you will recall [one of the bigger own goals in Spanish history, that].


From snippet 5

"Then it should damned well happen to him where he is!" White Fountain snapped. "Are you telling me we don't have any assassins who could get to him even in Saint Cahnyr?"

I'm pretty sure that's been tried, Star Rising thought caustically. Bit hard to get an assassin through to a man who's got several hundred fanatically devoted veterans watching his back, though. And more power to him!"


I happen to agree that parallels to Earth history are not going to go anywhere beyond generic stuff like a serf rebellion is really brutal, a huge country is hard to conquer, quantity has a quality of its own, demography matters, politics beats economics in the short term, but economics wins in the long term etc etc, so Rainbow Waters is set to be successful in creating a new state which Wind Song will "inherit" when his uncle dies of natural causes in due time.
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