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Howard railroad(spoilers)

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Re: Howard railroad(spoilers)
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:06 am

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JBNL1972 wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
well - since they are buying the trans/rails from Charis initially, then I would guess yes.

They could order custom versions I suppose, but that would cost!


But it wouldn't make sense, and it would require more originality of thought than is encouraged of a Desnairian gentleman in a tight spot.

I wonder how long it would take them to figure out that a rail line conencting to their neighbors is equally efficient in getting undesirable elements like ideas, spies and troublemakers (both in and out of uniform, and both alone and in great numbers) into their territory as it is good at transporting goods and such out to their neighbors .... :D

Interesting times!

Looking at the map at Buckley's, it appears that S Harchong has a much smaller population than either Desnair or what used to be N Harchong. That strikes me that a rail system from Desnair to the rump Harchong Empire in the South is more an invitation to Desnair than a threat to it. If S Harchong and N Harchong doesn't reconcile, Desnair would be foolish to not make economic overtures initially and military move later. A Railroad will ease things along.
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Re: Howard railroad(spoilers)
Post by JBNL1972   » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:54 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Looking at the map at Buckley's, it appears that S Harchong has a much smaller population than either Desnair or what used to be N Harchong. That strikes me that a rail system from Desnair to the rump Harchong Empire in the South is more an invitation to Desnair than a threat to it. If S Harchong and N Harchong doesn't reconcile, Desnair would be foolish to not make economic overtures initially and military move later. A Railroad will ease things along.


A fun historical fact just popped up in my head that the Prussians did unify Germany, mostly via railroad .... hmmm ... all the possibilities ^^

Either South Harchong get the astuteness to recognize Desnair's maneuver, or there'll be more imperial border shifts happening ... and this time on the mainland :D
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Re: Howard railroad(spoilers)
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:44 pm

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JBNL1972 wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Looking at the map at Buckley's, it appears that S Harchong has a much smaller population than either Desnair or what used to be N Harchong. That strikes me that a rail system from Desnair to the rump Harchong Empire in the South is more an invitation to Desnair than a threat to it. If S Harchong and N Harchong doesn't reconcile, Desnair would be foolish to not make economic overtures initially and military move later. A Railroad will ease things along.


A fun historical fact just popped up in my head that the Prussians did unify Germany, mostly via railroad .... hmmm ... all the possibilities ^^

Either South Harchong get the astuteness to recognize Desnair's maneuver, or there'll be more imperial border shifts happening ... and this time on the mainland :D

Ayup. Either the Emperor reconciles with the North in a meaningful way or Imperial Harchong becomes a province of Desnair. I just don't see how even Rainbow Waters can sweet talk enough oppressed serfs to eat that much crow. Reconcile with historically reasonable aristocracy in Boiseau might be possible when bribed by an over abundance of Charisian marks. Reconciling with an Emporer that seeks reconciliation ONLY to save his worthless ass is a bridge too far......much too far.

That means if S Harchong means to fight Desnair, they will have to kiss Charisian anal orifices. LOTS of orifices and some Dohlarans' as well.
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Re: Howard railroad(spoilers)
Post by JBNL1972   » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:17 am

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PeterZ wrote:Ayup. Either the Emperor reconciles with the North in a meaningful way or Imperial Harchong becomes a province of Desnair. I just don't see how even Rainbow Waters can sweet talk enough oppressed serfs to eat that much crow. Reconcile with historically reasonable aristocracy in Boiseau might be possible when bribed by an over abundance of Charisian marks. Reconciling with an Emporer that seeks reconciliation ONLY to save his worthless ass is a bridge too far......much too far.

That means if S Harchong means to fight Desnair, they will have to kiss Charisian anal orifices. LOTS of orifices and some Dohlarans' as well.


Two more things: I know there's textev that Rainbow Waters moved his family to south Harchong, and also for South Harchong being interested in acquiring Charisian techniques ... now put those two together: RW coming "home" to SH with his Host into a nation that's feeling around modernization with Desnair in enough of a predatory mood to think it is ahead of the game and believing it can pick up a few more provinces without problem.
At which point I'm not sure which way the border will go, and I'm not at all unsure the Desnairian serfs will be objecting to a rather northward and westward shift of where their capital is :)
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Re: Howard railroad(spoilers)
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:12 am

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If Rainbow Waters stabilizes the worst parts of N Harchong and reaches an accommodation with Star Rising and the rest of the Western aristos, his family down south will be hostages. The Emperor will want RW to return his Empire the way it was or his family suffers. I don't think any of the NH newly freed serfs will go for that. What happens next?

I suspect if anything happens to his family, he marches South and kills the Emperor. I suppose Seijin Avenging Son can show up to the Emperor and present a menu of options to choose from. It'll have just two items, neither item involves harm to RW's family and both require their return to him. One of the options will include all sorts of benies from Duke Delthak and Cayleb. The other involves a state funeral with an empty coffin, 'cause no one will ever see the Emperor again. Whichever will he choose?
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Re: Howard railroad(spoilers)
Post by cnrd22   » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:12 am

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PeterZ wrote:If Rainbow Waters stabilizes the worst parts of N Harchong and reaches an accommodation with Star Rising and the rest of the Western aristos, his family down south will be hostages. The Emperor will want RW to return his Empire the way it was or his family suffers. I don't think any of the NH newly freed serfs will go for that. What happens next?



How do we know that his family is in South Harchong? I thought his wife and his nephew and heir (Wind Song) were with him in the Temple Lands.

Star Rising, yes I think definitely has family in South Harchong (assuming they were not smart enough to gtfo when news about his exploits came from Boisseau)
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Re: Howard railroad(spoilers)
Post by JBNL1972   » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:45 pm

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cnrd22 wrote:
How do we know that his family is in South Harchong? I thought his wife and his nephew and heir (Wind Song) were with him in the Temple Lands.


Unless I'm incredibly mistaken, there's textev for this. I'll try and find it today or tomorrow.
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Re: Howard railroad(spoilers)
Post by phillies   » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:37 pm

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NHBL wrote:One interesting question about the railroad in Desnair. Will they be using the same gauge as Charis? It sounds like a small detail, but when the next war comes, it will be important, iven if the networks don't link up.


It would require thinking well outside the box, but if your guage is not the same as theirs, they cannot use your railroads at all during an invasion. Narrower is better. If your guage is wider, the rails can be moved in on the ties, if the ties are wood and not concrete or (Vermont RR) blocks of marble, but if your guage is wider, the other guy needs to bring in his own ties and widen your cuts.

I would suggest starting with teak ties and softer wooden wheels, dragon drawn, with brakemen as needed. It's way lower tech, but it can be done entirely with local resources and builds you up for the next step. Iron straps on the rails are likely to be a PITA in many ways. Perhaps spying out open hearth steelmaking would work.
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Re: Howard railroad(spoilers)
Post by Julia Minor   » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:54 am

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phillies wrote:I would suggest starting with teak ties and softer wooden wheels, dragon drawn, with brakemen as needed. It's way lower tech, but it can be done entirely with local resources and builds you up for the next step. Iron straps on the rails are likely to be a PITA in many ways. Perhaps spying out open hearth steelmaking would work.


The CoGA got their hands on plans for Charis' steelworks when the Sword Rakurai set off that riot in Siddar City. Whether Desnair accepted a copy is more than I can say, but South Harchong should have them because CoGA took over their steel and weapon production.
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Re: Howard railroad(spoilers)
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:00 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:
phillies wrote:I would suggest starting with teak ties and softer wooden wheels, dragon drawn, with brakemen as needed. It's way lower tech, but it can be done entirely with local resources and builds you up for the next step. Iron straps on the rails are likely to be a PITA in many ways. Perhaps spying out open hearth steelmaking would work.


The CoGA got their hands on plans for Charis' steelworks when the Sword Rakurai set off that riot in Siddar City. Whether Desnair accepted a copy is more than I can say, but South Harchong should have them because CoGA took over their steel and weapon production.

I wonder where South Harchong gets their iron ore and coal? Heck, where do they get most of their raw materials? The flow of raw materials to those manufactories will be central to the politics of Howard. I do mean all raw materials; from lumber and agricultural products like steel thistle to all varieties of ores.

Rereading AtSoT suggests that Boiseau and the areas west of the Chiang-wu range is where the majority of the North Harchong forges are. That assumption is supported by the river network flowing from the mountain ranges in Omar and Thomas. There are also rivers flowing down from the Desolation Mountains into Cheshire. It was inferred that Boisseau relied on coastal shipping to export their production. The existing river network will also suggest that Boisseau relies on coastal shipping to get the ore into their foundries.

That suggests to me that the railroads connecting the cities of Boisseau, Cheshire and Chiang-wu to the river and canal networks of central Harchong will improve productivity immensely. It will turn the largely agrarian North Harchong into an industrial powerhouse. They have access to ALL the raw materials needed for an industrial economy. They have access to a larger population than just about any other nation. Desnair is bassackward and Siddermark is a mess. South Harchong isn't as populated.

Connecting the nations of South Howard together by railroad to the southern slope of the Crescent Mountains has the potential of doing the same thing to those nations. The raw material potential of those mountains may well be attractive enough to justify investment. The Inner Circle has to be considering ways to spread industrialization to as many places as possible to reduce the possibility of widespread rakurai attacks after the Awakening.
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