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Snippet #12

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Snippet #12
Post by kaid   » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:17 pm

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Given their alliance during the war and the potential of siddermark I don't see the charisians giving up on them easily. Even if it is not profitable at first or even for a while siddermark is already pretty far down the path charis needs everybody to go to make the changes stick in the face of the return of the archangels.

If I had to guess it will be heavily financing the cousin who immigrated to charis to go back and buy out the rest of his family and right that ship. If they can get the basic economy stabilized then siddermark may have a chance to get its feet back under it.
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Re: Snippet #12
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:39 pm

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kaid wrote:Given their alliance during the war and the potential of siddermark I don't see the charisians giving up on them easily. Even if it is not profitable at first or even for a while siddermark is already pretty far down the path charis needs everybody to go to make the changes stick in the face of the return of the archangels.

If I had to guess it will be heavily financing the cousin who immigrated to charis to go back and buy out the rest of his family and right that ship. If they can get the basic economy stabilized then siddermark may have a chance to get its feet back under it.

Agreed. My point was Dohlaran and Silkiahn investments will likely go elsewhere. Siddermark won't grow nearly as fast as Duke Delthak thought it might when making his initial investments.
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Re: Snippet #12
Post by FriarBob   » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:16 pm

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PeterZ wrote:That leaves Delfehrahk, Selkar and Sodar as Howard nations looking at two expansionist empires joining forces. King Zhames will be sending his wife to Corisande pretty soon now.


IIRC Selkar and Sodar together barely have half a pot to piss in, so I think we can safely ignore them. At least until better mountain-tunneling techniques (and the necessary explosives) become available, at which point perhaps one of them or both become the next Switzerland. Maybe.

And I think your idea on Delfehrahk has merit. King Jahmes never had any particular hatred for Charis. Bones to pick, yes -- his waterfront did get leveled in a (deserved) reprisal, and I'm sure he did not appreciate Merlin's grand adventure when saving Davey -- but no true hatred.

But I'm also going to propose an alternate. Because he also had no real love for them either. And IIRC his primary concern during the Jihad was the excesses of Clyntahn. And of course how his country didn't benefit from the opened money spigots was probably a close second. And he didn't support the reformists, though he was likely cowed into submission by the orthodoxy (and/or intimidated by the inquisition). But all this adds up to a one-word description of "coward" or at least "ultra-cautious". So I'm thinking he may want to talk to Robair instead and see if he can help. Now if he has the brains of a newt he has to know that won't mean money, but it could mean technological advice that is "untainted" and "safe". And given his prior 'shushing' of his wife I expect he will be VERY interested in "safe" ways to improve his country's lot.

In some ways that makes him somewhat similar to Desnair here, but without the arrogance and stupidity. But this also make sense because he lives right next door to them. They can't help but share and adopt bits of each other's cultures and attitudes, at least so long as the relationship between them remains relatively peaceful.
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Re: Snippet #12
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:58 pm

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Your point on Sekar and Sodar are salient, FB. That's what makes them interesting points of discussion. Sodar has been mentioned several times but each time it has been dismissed much as you have dismissed it. That tempts me into thinking this is a
Chekov's Gun scenario.

Now let's consider their situation. Please include Delfehrahk in such consideration. They have a population that is engaged in subsistence aggriculture. Well perhaps a bit more than that, but not much. Desnair and Harchong are going to try to industrialize but also hold back on all of the techniques Charis advocates. That means they are going to need more workers per unit output. Where will they get those workers? North Harchong has just lost the majority of their population to a rebellion that Charis is facilitating. Selkar and Sodar are very close by. Selkar has a coast and Sodar is closer to Delfehrahk. All three make Greentree a more strategic ally and the Barren Lands a strategic colony prospect.

Will Charis interfere with a possible invasion of Selkar, Sodar and Myratha? No. Will they facilitate helping those citizens find a more congenial home near by? I suspect they will.
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Re: Snippet #12
Post by LordSunhawk   » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:17 am

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Interesting how the Desnairians are going for Five-Year Plans, eh? Shades of Soviet industrialization, eh? :lol: :twisted:
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Re: Snippet #12
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:33 am

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LordSunhawk wrote:Interesting how the Desnairians are going for Five-Year Plans, eh? Shades of Soviet industrialization, eh? :lol: :twisted:


I'm sure that the comparison never crossed RFC's mind. :roll:
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Re: Snippet #12
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:56 am

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Hi PeterZ,

Kudos for another excellent analysis, ;)

There needs to be a distinction between low speed very energy efficient canals [3 dragons pulling 2-3000 ton barges 50-70 miles per day for just 580 lbs of food each], compared to dozens of tons of wood or coal for the high energy cost railroads in the same time period; the railroad nay be still more efficient on a per ton mile basis, but there are still going to be many bulk cargoes that prefer the dragons because the profit margin is so narrow, both are needed, as the Mississippi river-canal system demonstrate.

Japan started with a adult male literacy rate of 60% in 1860, NTM practically a national compact to modernize, so by the 1880's-1890's they were exporting so many textiles that tariffs and quotas were instituted by the US and other more universally industrialized nations, as well as fueling the anti-Asian immigration movements; so there could be dramatic shifts in a couple of decades, assuming Desnair had the will and the skill, but they need to improve by at least a few orders of magnitude to match the Japanese effort, which they generally have so far failed to demonstrate.

OTOH, Dohlar and or Silkiah could very well achieve that level of success in a decade or two if Charis isn't careful, but I don't expect Sharleyan or Cayleb to drop such stitches in industrializing the empire, keeping in mind we're only 5 years from the archangels' return.

The princedom of Selkar was only mentioned once in OAR, and not given a population in RFC's list 6&1/2 years ago, while Sodar had 37 million [compared to Delferahk's 83 million, if you think they're of comparable size], rather thin given its size and generally best known for their skill in stealing each other's sheep apparently.

Given its central location in Howard, and the importance of the anti-slavery movement to EoC, I previously suggested that Charis buy Sodar; barony by bankrupt barony, earldom by empty earldom, destitute dukedom by dirt poor dukedom, for pennies on the dollar of their accumulated debt to the church and crown etc, (possibly a small retirement pension on some coastal mansion to get them out of the way etc) if no other means present themselves; to provide refuges for escaped serfs/slaves from Desnair, Delferahk, Selkar, and South Harchong, then arranging for them to go to Greentree or Westbreak islands etc, where they will be safe thanks to the ICN.

From some of the world maps there seems to be a number of lakes that veer westward in Delferahk, that might be linked by canals or rivers, which Charis might offer to finish connecting besides helping build railroads etc.

Financing the terraforming of the barren Lands just for the ex-serfs, would be an excellent means for Charis to win many if not most of the Harchong and other serfs.

Even if all the islands of Safehold aren't incorporated into the empire of Charis, The ICN still guarantees their safety, and they can at least provide markets if not safe harbors.

The Harchong serfs have yet to show a preference for the CoC, NTM the next series of war may be over more heretical revelations than the circle has intended.

Given what we don't know, Siddarmark could wind up fighting the EoC, however much I wouldn't like that.

Thanks again for some good posts,

L


PeterZ wrote:Your point on Sekar and Sodar are salient, FB. That's what makes them interesting points of discussion. Sodar has been mentioned several times but each time it has been dismissed much as you have dismissed it. That tempts me into thinking this is a
Chekov's Gun scenario.

Now let's consider their situation. Please include Delfehrahk in such consideration. They have a population that is engaged in subsistence aggriculture. Well perhaps a bit more than that, but not much. Desnair and Harchong are going to try to industrialize but also hold back on all of the techniques Charis advocates. That means they are going to need more workers per unit output. Where will they get those workers? North Harchong has just lost the majority of their population to a rebellion that Charis is facilitating. Selkar and Sodar are very close by. Selkar has a coast and Sodar is closer to Delfehrahk. All three make Greentree a more strategic ally and the Barren Lands a strategic colony prospect.

Will Charis interfere with a possible invasion of Selkar, Sodar and Myratha? No. Will they facilitate helping those citizens find a more congenial home near by? I suspect they will.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Snippet #12
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:03 am

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lyonheart wrote:There needs to be a distinction between low speed very energy efficient canals [3 dragons pulling 2-3000 ton barges 50-70 miles per day for just 580 lbs of food each], compared to dozens of tons of wood or coal for the high energy cost railroads in the same time period; the railroad nay be still more efficient on a per ton mile basis, but there are still going to be many bulk cargoes that prefer the dragons because the profit margin is so narrow, both are needed, as the Mississippi river-canal system demonstrate.


An alternative I haven't seen mentioned is combining dragon-traction with iron rails. The only advantage steam would have is speed (and power braking, a la Westinghouse brakes.) Dragons would be able to haul nearly as much weight in train-cars on iron(steel) rail as in canal-barges.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Snippet #12
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:03 am

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LordSunhawk wrote:Interesting how the Desnairians are going for Five-Year Plans, eh? Shades of Soviet industrialization, eh? :lol: :twisted:


Yes - I notice that.

well - it also answered my question as to what an 'automotive' was. Trains not road vehicles.

Also - if they are going to be buying some Charisian engines, that seems to imply that they will also be needing the full 2 steel rail system, and not some wooden single rail option...
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Re: Snippet #12
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:06 am

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something else that I noticed... Desnair is beginning to rebuild its spy system... so Charis is no longer pruning them back - at least outside the home islands [I presume]
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