Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

non charisian Navy ships

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
non charisian Navy ships
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:28 am

Dauntless
Commodore

Posts: 891
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:54 pm
Location: United Kingdom

we've only seen a small time jump in TFT so far but i'm thinking about what the navies of the world look like.

we all know they want Cities iron clad at least if not KHVIIs but what can they actually build?

as far as we know no-one outside of Clynthan ever heard anything about Steam Engines, and while Charis lost plans that included the concept, it was just basic outline not enough foe someone to easily build their own. with the war over i'm not sure Duchain will be willing to adopt steam engines even if they could build them.

no-one else has even that info, so the best i expect the others to be building nothing more advanced then a Rottweiler clone.

Dolhar at least has or had one they could study and it no doubt was helpful to them, but beyond giving the ideas for how to make somewhat better cannon and maybe armour it does little to address the combat power differential of even a City let alone a KHVII but without steam I would say thier options are very limited.

The rottweilver is a very capable platform and against non charis enemies it could give any one who doesn't have a similar ship real problems.
Top
Re: non charisian Navy ships
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:14 am

Dilandu
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1490
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Russia

Dauntless wrote:we've only seen a small time jump in TFT so far but i'm thinking about what the navies of the world look like.

we all know they want Cities iron clad at least if not KHVIIs but what can they actually build?

as far as we know no-one outside of Clynthan ever heard anything about Steam Engines, and while Charis lost plans that included the concept, it was just basic outline not enough foe someone to easily build their own. with the war over i'm not sure Duchain will be willing to adopt steam engines even if they could build them.

no-one else has even that info, so the best i expect the others to be building nothing more advanced then a Rottweiler clone.

Dolhar at least has or had one they could study and it no doubt was helpful to them, but beyond giving the ideas for how to make somewhat better cannon and maybe armour it does little to address the combat power differential of even a City let alone a KHVII but without steam I would say thier options are very limited.

The rottweilver is a very capable platform and against non charis enemies it could give any one who doesn't have a similar ship real problems.


Nobody in the right mind would build a "Rottweilver" clone. The mere idea of sail-driven ironclad is so flawed, that basically should not be even attempted.

P.S.

http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9329&p=258106&hilit=coastal+defense#p258106
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: non charisian Navy ships
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:51 pm

Dauntless
Commodore

Posts: 891
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:54 pm
Location: United Kingdom

what other choice do they have?

without steam engine you are dependent upon sail or something like the crank galleys which while they effective at the galley size i'm not convinced they could be scaled up enough to be usable.
Top
Re: non charisian Navy ships
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:59 pm

Dilandu
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1490
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Russia

Dauntless wrote:what other choice do they have?

without steam engine you are dependent upon sail or something like the crank galleys which while they effective at the galley size i'm not convinced they could be scaled up enough to be usable.


Build the steam engines. It would took time, but it isn't impossible. In fact, Vietnam done this as early as in 1838 - under the order of emperor Minh Mạng, local blacksmith and artisans were able to design and build several steamboats, using only the general european-delivered knowledge.

Incidentally, you could not made wrought armor plates of significant size and thickness without steam-powered hammers and rolling presses, so it would simply be impossible to reproduce the armor without having steam too.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: non charisian Navy ships
Post by Randomiser   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:58 am

Randomiser
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: Scotland

No-one wants another war immediately, most don't have the energy and Charis doesn't have the motivation. Traditional type ships are fine for dealing with traditional type pirates etc.

In the medium term, a few years, there is no problem with everyone getting hold of steam engines. Charis actively wants to persuade people to buy them, in the form of pumps, industrial engines, locomotives etc and will train the buyers' engineers in how to maintain them. Cue a huge effort in reverse engineering wherever anyone has two brain cells to rub together. Heck, Charisians may even sell you merchant steam ships. If not you just have to work out from your land-based ones how to build marine engines. Dohlar isn't going to have a problem, and our favourite lieutenant is going to get rich. Brother Lynkyn etc aren't going to have a problem, and will sell everyone else technical expertise and designs to try to ameliorate the Temple's financial difficulties. There you go - steam navies all round.
Top
Re: non charisian Navy ships
Post by ETathome   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:05 am

ETathome
Ensign

Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:13 pm

I would think that it would be merchant marine that would be spread first. While the dominance of the Ironclads is unquestioned, why try to build warships? As it was pointed out in an earlier post, everyone is tired of the last war. Even ICN is trying to build down from Jihad levels.

The ships will be steam powered, but they would not be ironclads. Iron cross beams and metal support will certainly happen in the initial design. The speed advantage in steam will also be used. But a full ironclad would be avoided at first because everyone saw them as ships of war.
Top
Re: non charisian Navy ships
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:32 am

Dilandu
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1490
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Russia

ETathome wrote:I would think that it would be merchant marine that would be spread first. While the dominance of the Ironclads is unquestioned, why try to build warships? As it was pointed out in an earlier post, everyone is tired of the last war. Even ICN is trying to build down from Jihad levels.

The ships will be steam powered, but they would not be ironclads. Iron cross beams and metal support will certainly happen in the initial design. The speed advantage in steam will also be used. But a full ironclad would be avoided at first because everyone saw them as ships of war.


Because Dohlar need to control their waters for the kingdom's security. Thry need to have the ability to threw Charisians away from the Gulf, otherwise they would never feel themselves secure anymore. The geography is playing into their hands; they could sacrifice rande and seakeeping ability and build smaller ships with the same fighting power as Charisian ocean-capable ironclads.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: non charisian Navy ships
Post by Randomiser   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:25 am

Randomiser
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: Scotland

Dilandu wrote:
Because Dohlar need to control their waters for the kingdom's security. Thry need to have the ability to threw Charisians away from the Gulf, otherwise they would never feel themselves secure anymore. The geography is playing into their hands; they could sacrifice rande and seakeeping ability and build smaller ships with the same fighting power as Charisian ocean-capable ironclads.


Certainly a strategic aim for Dohlar. The technical capability may take a few years post war, for the armour and guns as well as the engines, remembering that the Charisians are no longer confined to gunpowder for propellant or payload. The political feasibility, may depend on the terms of the peace treaty and how aggressively the ICN decide to enforce them.

The Inner Circle need to win the next (religious) war as well, how much can they afford to or manage to restrict others' military capability with that in mind?
Top
Re: non charisian Navy ships
Post by EdThomas   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:58 am

EdThomas
Captain of the List

Posts: 505
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:47 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Do we know much about treaty terms and reparations?
Top
Re: non charisian Navy ships
Post by shayvaan   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:34 am

shayvaan
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

EdThomas wrote:Do we know much about treaty terms and reparations?


No details yet, but given Charis' track record in this regard, NTM the plan they just came up with in the snippets, I doubt they were especially bad.

@Randomiser

The main problem for Charis is that they MUST spread technology to every nook and cranny on Safehold that they can, to keep any "archangels" that might show up in the next 15 years or so from just turning Charis into a moonscape.

The capabilities of other nations, which will probably come from either reverse-engineering civilian tech, or possibly military alliances with Charis, will tend to take a distant second place to that.
Top

Return to Safehold