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Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA

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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by Julia Minor   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:44 pm

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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:58 pm

Dilandu wrote:
evilauthor wrote:
And you can't use all that bronze for other applications?

Hmm... what would a society in the middle of an industrial revolution use bronze for? I can't believe the stuff is so worthless that governments would give bronze cannons away to pirates even if said pirates' normal prey is that government's nominal enemies.


You are making the same mistake, assuming that legal weapon trade is preformed only by governments. While till the XX century, the majority of international weapon trade was done by completely private enterprises. Some private trader could easily brought surplus guns and then re-sell them to Trellheim for his own cut of pirate's booty.


Point, but there might be better uses for that bronze, and the people interested in them might just be able to pay better than a group of pirates.

Just on a quick websearch, I see that bronze is still used today to make tools for use in explosive atmospheres or around flammable vapors, because it doesn't generate sparks the way steel does when you pound on things with it. Odds are Howsmyn is using a lot of it for his gasworks, and there's probably a decent amount in the powder mills as well. It's also used for springs and bearings, both of which would be allowed under the Proscriptions (remember all those characters with watches?). And before the days of stainless steel, bronze was commonly used for ship propellers and other fittings because it didn't corrode the way iron did. Any mainland country that wants to copy the River class will either be looking for bronze or trying to figure out Howsmyn's specific steel alloys, and the first is faster.

And don't forget, there's a lot of mainland churches that will need rebuilding, and bronze is the traditional metal for bell casting. The CoGA may not be able to afford to buy those bronze cannons for recycling, but a nobleman could score some easy piety points (and have it count toward his tithe) by donating the metal for a new set of bells for the local cathedral.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by evilauthor   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:55 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:
Point, but there might be better uses for that bronze, and the people interested in them might just be able to pay better than a group of pirates.


This is almost certainly the case. The Trellheim pirates are pirates because they're poor. A hungry mainland industrial revolution is going to certainly pay better than a bunch of poor island pirates.

And the nations that don't industrialize (North Harchong?) are going to need all the guns they can get for... other reasons.

Edit: Trellheim Piracy MIGHT make a come back if commercial shippers decide that they don't need to be armed any more now that the war's over. But that's going to depend on a whole host of factors we don't know about (like what's happening to all those privately owned small time shipping families that Charis has in the face of steam powered freighters, how extensive steam powered shipping can be in a world that doesn't have a worldwide network of commercial coaling stations yet, etc etc).
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:00 pm

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evilauthor wrote:
This is almost certainly the case. The Trellheim pirates are pirates because they're poor. A hungry mainland industrial revolution is going to certainly pay better than a bunch of poor island pirates.


...Again, you are mixing modern-day Somalian piracy with the piracy of sailship era. The pirates of sailship era were, basically, the small business enterprises, established for a sole purpose of profit. And the profit must be big enough to pay for the possible risks. Not to mention, that pirates weren't just "professional pirates" - they were smugglers also, during wartime they tried to make a money as privateers by receiving the letter of marque.

In short, while individual pirates were rather poor, their CORPORATIONS have more than enough money to pay for ships and weapons.
------------------------------

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- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by evilauthor   » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:25 am

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Dilandu wrote:...Again, you are mixing modern-day Somalian piracy with the piracy of sailship era. The pirates of sailship era were, basically, the small business enterprises, established for a sole purpose of profit. And the profit must be big enough to pay for the possible risks. Not to mention, that pirates weren't just "professional pirates" - they were smugglers also, during wartime they tried to make a money as privateers by receiving the letter of marque.

In short, while individual pirates were rather poor, their CORPORATIONS have more than enough money to pay for ships and weapons.


And everything I've heard about the Trellheim pirates makes them sound more like Somalian pirates than Sailship era pirates: poor villages that hijack any foreign shipping that comes into their reach.

This is especially the case since their ships are pre-Age off Sail galleys. Galleys aren't the kinds of ships you do smuggling or any kind of shipping with, even in the pre-Merlin days.

And even if the Trellheim pirates are more like corporations, so what? That just means most of their capital is tied up in now obsolete galleys, and they're unlikely to have the spare cash lying around to upgrade to a broadside based galleon fleet... which is already obsolete anyway!

Given the state of post-War Safehold, I'd expect a resurgent Trellheim pirate threat to be about as plausible as the Mongol Empire making a comeback today.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by SYED   » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:42 pm

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The imperial privateers need a new target after the war. So instead of going after the church flagged ships or their allies, the best target would be harchong. To go after their home waters, they need some safe harbors, which might include trellheim.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by evilauthor   » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:47 am

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SYED wrote:The imperial privateers need a new target after the war. So instead of going after the church flagged ships or their allies, the best target would be harchong. To go after their home waters, they need some safe harbors, which might include trellheim.


Privateers are only privateers when they're sponsored by a nation and that they attack the shipping their sponsor is at war at.

And those privateers had already hunted out all the Harchongian shipping they could long before the war ended.

By the end of the war, I'm not sure any Charisian privateers even still existed. All the easy victims had long since been hunted out and what little remained was protected by groups like the Dohlaran Navy which needed actual Charisian naval units to crack. When the privateering was going on, there was certainly talk about the privateers selling their boats back to the Charisian Navy once privateering was no longer profitable.

And even if there were still Charisian privateers, they'd have nothing to attack once the war was over. Attacking people your country isn't at war with tends to either be construed as either an act of war or an act of outright piracy. And if the sponsoring nation doesn't want to go to war, the privateer gets declared to be a pirate.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:48 pm

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Hi guys,

Sorry to be late in responding, but life continues to intervene. ;)

I apologize for being so groggy and forgetting or omitting some of the points I intended to make because it was so early in the morning.

First of all, I wasn't objecting to the army build down, but noting it was 5 full years after the war ended [August 898], a long time to be building down.

Which begs the question of what else the army may have been doing sine the war nominally ended.

Given 4.5 million temple loyalists in the border states and the temple lands who want to go home as much as the MHoGatA Harchongians do, and millions of other Siddarmark citizens bent on revenge you have grounds for a very nasty near civil war in western Siddarmark at the very least; very similar to what France, Italy and Greece etc suffered after WW2 as both the left and right sought revenge for the betrayals and murders each side had inflicted on each other during the war, irrespective of the Nazi's etc.

If something, ie assassination, happened to the Lord Protector, civil chaos might be making the restoration of order and thus a safe investment environment near impossible as the snippets suggest.

The ICA, commanded by Green Valley/Serebor might have been involved in the attempted policing and nation building that involved, delaying the intended build down until recently.

We don't have any hard numbers for the full ICA at the end of war, but up to 750-800,000 including those still enlisting and being trained seems quite possible.

Given how synonymous piracy and slavery are, especially in the honorverse, it isn't hard to assume Sharleyan could make a very good case for eliminating the Trellheim pirates or at least liberating their slaves as part of the anti-slavery movement Charis is championing.

Correctly evaluating Sharleyan's attitude, now that she finally has the navy to punish her father's killers, tat doesn't have any other threats to deal with, is of course critical.

She may have outgrown the need for revenge, but if the SNARC's bring dramatic proof of the abuse of the slaves and other nefarious pursuits, she may have the ammunition she needs.

Some posters may be unaware of the pirate fleets in the South China Sea in the first third of the 20th century, or that HMS Hermes (including its 6 5.5" guns) and HMS Argus among others attacked Chinese pirate fleets near Hong Kong in 1927 that were harassing international shipping with their powered junks and sampans.

The last word we have of the Trellheim pirates is that they were smart enough not to irritate the Charisian empire by raiding their mid ocean coaling stations; indicating a considerable range for galleys, presumably of the 'Mediterranean' type that everyone but Charis used, besides their occasional foray to 'raid' the North Harchong coast.

Dilandu made a very excellent point regarding blatant exercises of power when you're claiming to be the good guys.

OTOH, demonstrating what happens to the next group that irritates the Charisian empire might be considered a good thing, particularly if dressed up as spreading civilization, liberating slaves, and nation building.

It's quite possible there may some unique minerals in Trellheim and its nearby islands that are important to a growing industrial revolution, that were worthless in the medieval Safehold society before the jihad, that might provide another reason to grab at least the coastal areas, NTM Japan's blockade of China by seizing all the southern port cities with RR's leading inland, being much cheaper than a naval blockade, since you're paying the soldiers regardless of where they are.

Another thing we don't know is what size the ICA is building down to, since the Imperial Charisian Empire [ICE] could afford to maintain the army at its wartime peak if it chose too, and it expects trouble sooner rather than 'hopefully never' (the more common post war attitude) thanks to the Moryah lode; but its clearly going to be more than the pre-war 200-250K, my vote being closer to 450-500K, plus quite a well trained militia [ie reserve and national guard] to back them up.

Trellheim clearly provides a training opportunity for the ICE, needed since the rapprochement with the Raven Lords.

The pirates had fences before the jihad, no doubt they will provide any artillery they judge the pirates can afford.

Sorry this went on so long.

Best wishes to all,

L


PeterZ wrote:After 5 years and still in the process of building down the ICA makes sense in other ways. Delays in building down provides time for industrial infrastructure to be built to employ the released soldiers. During that delay the soldiers remain employed and capable of purchases and investments. Furthermore by limiting the unemployment during the transition, Cayleb can keep wages high without using artificial means. This situation maintains the sense of parity of economic clout between employers and employees and reinforces Duke Delthak's philosophy of collaboration between employees and employers. Once the build down is relatively complete the economic conditions will pretty much establish that parity as a fundemental operating truth in the Charisian Empire's economy.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by SYED   » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:35 pm

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Rear Admiral

Posts: 1344
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:03 pm

Trellheim might welcome the empire, the money, resources and business they would bring would make them far more wealthy. Sure the royals might want some pirates dealt with, but their companions would turn on them in an instant. The empire is the biggest power around on the sea, better allies than enemies.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by jtg452   » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:42 am

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Posts: 349
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lyonheart wrote:Hi guys,

Sorry to be late in responding, but life continues to intervene. ;)

I apologize for being so groggy and forgetting or omitting some of the points I intended to make because it was so early in the morning.

First of all, I wasn't objecting to the army build down, but noting it was 5 full years after the war ended [August 898], a long time to be building down.

Which begs the question of what else the army may have been doing sine the war nominally ended.

Given 4.5 million temple loyalists in the border states and the temple lands who want to go home as much as the MHoGatA Harchongians do, and millions of other Siddarmark citizens bent on revenge you have grounds for a very nasty near civil war in western Siddarmark at the very least; very similar to what France, Italy and Greece etc suffered after WW2 as both the left and right sought revenge for the betrayals and murders each side had inflicted on each other during the war, irrespective of the Nazi's etc.

If something, ie assassination, happened to the Lord Protector, civil chaos might be making the restoration of order and thus a safe investment environment near impossible as the snippets suggest.

The ICA, commanded by Green Valley/Serebor might have been involved in the attempted policing and nation building that involved, delaying the intended build down until recently.

We don't have any hard numbers for the full ICA at the end of war, but up to 750-800,000 including those still enlisting and being trained seems quite possible.

Given how synonymous piracy and slavery are, especially in the honorverse, it isn't hard to assume Sharleyan could make a very good case for eliminating the Trellheim pirates or at least liberating their slaves as part of the anti-slavery movement Charis is championing.

Correctly evaluating Sharleyan's attitude, now that she finally has the navy to punish her father's killers, tat doesn't have any other threats to deal with, is of course critical.

She may have outgrown the need for revenge, but if the SNARC's bring dramatic proof of the abuse of the slaves and other nefarious pursuits, she may have the ammunition she needs.

Some posters may be unaware of the pirate fleets in the South China Sea in the first third of the 20th century, or that HMS Hermes (including its 6 5.5" guns) and HMS Argus among others attacked Chinese pirate fleets near Hong Kong in 1927 that were harassing international shipping with their powered junks and sampans.

The last word we have of the Trellheim pirates is that they were smart enough not to irritate the Charisian empire by raiding their mid ocean coaling stations; indicating a considerable range for galleys, presumably of the 'Mediterranean' type that everyone but Charis used, besides their occasional foray to 'raid' the North Harchong coast.

Dilandu made a very excellent point regarding blatant exercises of power when you're claiming to be the good guys.

OTOH, demonstrating what happens to the next group that irritates the Charisian empire might be considered a good thing, particularly if dressed up as spreading civilization, liberating slaves, and nation building.

It's quite possible there may some unique minerals in Trellheim and its nearby islands that are important to a growing industrial revolution, that were worthless in the medieval Safehold society before the jihad, that might provide another reason to grab at least the coastal areas, NTM Japan's blockade of China by seizing all the southern port cities with RR's leading inland, being much cheaper than a naval blockade, since you're paying the soldiers regardless of where they are.

Another thing we don't know is what size the ICA is building down to, since the Imperial Charisian Empire [ICE] could afford to maintain the army at its wartime peak if it chose too, and it expects trouble sooner rather than 'hopefully never' (the more common post war attitude) thanks to the Moryah lode; but its clearly going to be more than the pre-war 200-250K, my vote being closer to 450-500K, plus quite a well trained militia [ie reserve and national guard] to back them up.

Trellheim clearly provides a training opportunity for the ICE, needed since the rapprochement with the Raven Lords.

The pirates had fences before the jihad, no doubt they will provide any artillery they judge the pirates can afford.

Sorry this went on so long.

Best wishes to all,

L

Sorry, I still can't see the logic of your argument.

Explain to me again how sending large numbers of Army troops will be an effective way to deal with sea pirates?

What's the Army got to do with piracy suppression?

And why would one want to go through all of the hassle to try to train Army troops in amphibious warfare just to go after pirates when the Empire has all of those Charisan Marines sitting there twiddling their thumbs?

You mention the HMS Hermes pulling anti-piracy ops in the '20's, using your logic, they should have sent in the Gurkhas or the Black Watch instead. I know, maybe they should have sent in the Bengal Lancers! Long pointy sticks and horses are just so effective against ships, after all. Using an aircraft carrier's defensive batteries against motorized junks smacks of desperation because they didn't have anything like the proper vessels for the job.

Pirate suppression is, traditionally speaking, a NAVY job. Comes in handy to have ships when chasing pirates. If there's a need to break up a stronghold on land, the Navy's land component and resident amphibious warfare experts, the MARINES, get the nod.

As discovered, repeatedly, in the Caribbean for centuries by various navies, the most effective anti-piracy ops involve shallow draft, fast ships in large numbers.

They are harder to out run and they can go anywhere the pirates can since they, too, are shallow draft. In this case, there's no need to pull in state of the art steam ships or super battleship analogs. We are talking about galleys that are far outclassed by anything the ICN has and there were a LOT of sloops (a favorite of the British for anti-piracy work) around with nothing else to do.

A FEW larger vessels along in support of landings (besides, you don't think an Admiral is going to be flying his flag from a sloop do you? There's barely enough room for the crew, much less a Flag staff, too) and a Marine compliment for ship boarding and raids on the pirates' onshore support network is also needed. The landing compliment doesn't necessarily need to be a large one. In this case, maybe a thousand or two total just to have enough troops there to rotate duties and use it as a live fire training exercise.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by phillies   » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:50 pm

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Posts: 1842
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:43 am
Location: Worcester, MA

jtg452 wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi guys,

Sorry to be late in responding, but life continues to intervene. ;)

I apologize for being so groggy and forgetting or omitting some of the points I intended to make because it was so early in the morning.

First of all, I wasn't objecting to the army build down, but noting it was 5 full years after the war ended [August 898], a long time to be building down.

Which begs the question of what else the army may have been doing sine the war nominally ended.

Given 4.5 million temple loyalists in the border states and the temple lands who want to go home as much as the MHoGatA Harchongians do, and millions of other Siddarmark citizens bent on revenge you have grounds for a very nasty near civil war in western Siddarmark at the very least; very similar to what France, Italy and Greece etc suffered after WW2 as both the left and right sought revenge for the betrayals and murders each side had inflicted on each other during the war, irrespective of the Nazi's etc.

If something, ie assassination, happened to the Lord Protector, civil chaos might be making the restoration of order and thus a safe investment environment near impossible as the snippets suggest.

The ICA, commanded by Green Valley/Serebor might have been involved in the attempted policing and nation building that involved, delaying the intended build down until recently.

We don't have any hard numbers for the full ICA at the end of war, but up to 750-800,000 including those still enlisting and being trained seems quite possible.

Given how synonymous piracy and slavery are, especially in the honorverse, it isn't hard to assume Sharleyan could make a very good case for eliminating the Trellheim pirates or at least liberating their slaves as part of the anti-slavery movement Charis is championing.

Correctly evaluating Sharleyan's attitude, now that she finally has the navy to punish her father's killers, tat doesn't have any other threats to deal with, is of course critical.

She may have outgrown the need for revenge, but if the SNARC's bring dramatic proof of the abuse of the slaves and other nefarious pursuits, she may have the ammunition she needs.

Some posters may be unaware of the pirate fleets in the South China Sea in the first third of the 20th century, or that HMS Hermes (including its 6 5.5" guns) and HMS Argus among others attacked Chinese pirate fleets near Hong Kong in 1927 that were harassing international shipping with their powered junks and sampans.

The last word we have of the Trellheim pirates is that they were smart enough not to irritate the Charisian empire by raiding their mid ocean coaling stations; indicating a considerable range for galleys, presumably of the 'Mediterranean' type that everyone but Charis used, besides their occasional foray to 'raid' the North Harchong coast.

Dilandu made a very excellent point regarding blatant exercises of power when you're claiming to be the good guys.

OTOH, demonstrating what happens to the next group that irritates the Charisian empire might be considered a good thing, particularly if dressed up as spreading civilization, liberating slaves, and nation building.

It's quite possible there may some unique minerals in Trellheim and its nearby islands that are important to a growing industrial revolution, that were worthless in the medieval Safehold society before the jihad, that might provide another reason to grab at least the coastal areas, NTM Japan's blockade of China by seizing all the southern port cities with RR's leading inland, being much cheaper than a naval blockade, since you're paying the soldiers regardless of where they are.

Another thing we don't know is what size the ICA is building down to, since the Imperial Charisian Empire [ICE] could afford to maintain the army at its wartime peak if it chose too, and it expects trouble sooner rather than 'hopefully never' (the more common post war attitude) thanks to the Moryah lode; but its clearly going to be more than the pre-war 200-250K, my vote being closer to 450-500K, plus quite a well trained militia [ie reserve and national guard] to back them up.

Trellheim clearly provides a training opportunity for the ICE, needed since the rapprochement with the Raven Lords.

The pirates had fences before the jihad, no doubt they will provide any artillery they judge the pirates can afford.

Sorry this went on so long.

Best wishes to all,

L

Sorry, I still can't see the logic of your argument.

Explain to me again how sending large numbers of Army troops will be an effective way to deal with sea pirates?

What's the Army got to do with piracy suppression?

And why would one want to go through all of the hassle to try to train Army troops in amphibious warfare just to go after pirates when the Empire has all of those Charisan Marines sitting there twiddling their thumbs?

You mention the HMS Hermes pulling anti-piracy ops in the '20's, using your logic, they should have sent in the Gurkhas or the Black Watch instead. I know, maybe they should have sent in the Bengal Lancers! Long pointy sticks and horses are just so effective against ships, after all. Using an aircraft carrier's defensive batteries against motorized junks smacks of desperation because they didn't have anything like the proper vessels for the job.

Pirate suppression is, traditionally speaking, a NAVY job. Comes in handy to have ships when chasing pirates. If there's a need to break up a stronghold on land, the Navy's land component and resident amphibious warfare experts, the MARINES, get the nod.

As discovered, repeatedly, in the Caribbean for centuries by various navies, the most effective anti-piracy ops involve shallow draft, fast ships in large numbers.

They are harder to out run and they can go anywhere the pirates can since they, too, are shallow draft. In this case, there's no need to pull in state of the art steam ships or super battleship analogs. We are talking about galleys that are far outclassed by anything the ICN has and there were a LOT of sloops (a favorite of the British for anti-piracy work) around with nothing else to do.

A FEW larger vessels along in support of landings (besides, you don't think an Admiral is going to be flying his flag from a sloop do you? There's barely enough room for the crew, much less a Flag staff, too) and a Marine compliment for ship boarding and raids on the pirates' onshore support network is also needed. The landing compliment doesn't necessarily need to be a large one. In this case, maybe a thousand or two total just to have enough troops there to rotate duties and use it as a live fire training exercise.


You land the troops, seize the pirate cities (well, villages and castles),and invite the pirate ships to trade: Their galleys for the right to land.

Cut off from ports, the pirates find new occupations.

See pirates, barbary.
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