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Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA

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Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:25 am

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Hi all,

It's been a long time since I last posted but I'm trying to catch up despite life keeping me very busy.

So far no snippet has referenced Trellheim, but I've always expected that Sharleyan would use the ICN and ICA to finally reap full revenge for her father, even if it was 19 years ago.

The information we have is very limited; according to OAR and BSRA, the small number of Trellheim pirate "kingdom/princedoms" had less than a half dozen galleys each, not worth combining with the KotTL supported fleet.

Geographically speaking we don't have a complete one piece map of Trellheim, but we can expect most of the pirates are concentrated south of 34' north, given the deep winters that Cherayth experiences at that same latitude (though there might be small villages of escaped slaves), and the probable lack of terraforming by the pirates, although procuring slaves for such hard work might be a secondary purpose for their piracy.

We don't know the tropic zone's northern boundary, but quite tropical Tellesberg is less than 17' south, and more pirates may be on the tropical coastal islands than the continent's actual coast, let alone extending that far inland.

Given the preference of Safehold's commerce save Charis's to navigate along the continental coasts, one wonders if the Charisian preference and expertise for blue water routes was created just to avoid the Trellheim pirates.

One then wonders, given the size and scope of the prewar Charisian commerce, if many of the slaves taken were Charisian, and then why weren't joint naval operations against them made by the Royal Chisholm and Charis navies in the decades before Merlin appeared.

All of this suggests the ICN could now easily destroy the now obsolete and pathetic Trellhiem naval forces very quickly, now pinpointed thanks to all those mysterious seijin spies, just using the city class steel cruisers etc.

All the islands of Safehold belong to Charis, and liberating those along Trellheim's coast would provide refuges for all the liberated slaves protected by ICN naval bases, to finish any terraforming and own for themselves.

Initially invading the continent could be a very quick campaign, intended to drive the likely survivors well beyond the terraformed plots and disperse them into insignificance if they can survive without terraformed vegetables etc.

But given human fallibility, its quite possible that formidable inland pirate princedoms might survive.

Though they wouldn't pose a piratical threat anymore, they might prove useful to keeping the ICA in fighting trim, testing new tactics and weapons, the way the raids from the Raven Lord lands did before the war.

Thus Trellheim could serve Charis and Chisholm for decades to come. ;)

Curiously, according to the snippets, Green Valley/Serebor says they're still 'building down' the army 5 years after the war.

Best wishes to all.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:17 pm

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lyonheart wrote:Hi all,

It's been a long time since I last posted but I'm trying to catch up despite life keeping me very busy.

So far no snippet has referenced Trellheim, but I've always expected that Sharleyan would use the...
<SNIP>

Thus Trellheim could serve Charis and Chisholm for decades to come. ;)

Curiously, according to the snippets, Green Valley/Serebor says they're still 'building down' the army 5 years after the war.

Best wishes to all.


Actually, building down the Army makes sense.

Armies are EXPENSIVE! Even in peace time you have the cost of training, feeding, housing, and supplying with uniforms, weapons,and ammunition. It makes sense for a smaller size, large enough to meet the defensive needs of the country with a modest reserve. You don’t need to maintain one large enough to invade the mainland at all times.

Secondly, Charis has an all volunteer military. Most recruits signed on for just the counter-Jihad with no real interest in making it their life’s career. Now that it’s over they will want to return to their civilian lives and careers.

Finally, economically Charis NEEDS them back in the private sector. The workforce got HAMMERED having 5-8% of the able bodied men enlisted and a large number of them won’t be coming back or will be returning unable to work. They are needed more regrowing and expanding the economy as well as, to be blunt, growing the population. There’s a reason a “baby boom” generally follows after any major high-casualty event like a World War.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:31 pm

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After 5 years and still in the process of building down the ICA makes sense in other ways. Delays in building down provides time for industrial infrastructure to be built to employ the released soldiers. During that delay the soldiers remain employed and capable of purchases and investments. Furthermore by limiting the unemployment during the transition, Cayleb can keep wages high without using artificial means. This situation maintains the sense of parity of economic clout between employers and employees and reinforces Duke Delthak's philosophy of collaboration between employees and employers. Once the build down is relatively complete the economic conditions will pretty much establish that parity as a fundemental operating truth in the Charisian Empire's economy.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by evilauthor   » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:44 pm

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lyonheart wrote:The information we have is very limited; according to OAR and BSRA, the small number of Trellheim pirate "kingdom/princedoms" had less than a half dozen galleys each, not worth combining with the KotTL supported fleet.


I'm sorry, but why would Sharleyan need to plan revenge against pirates armed only with obsolete galleys? Privately owned cannon armed galleons alone would pretty much obliterate any such pirate that tried to take them.

Without a cannon industry of their own or someone to supply them, the Trellheim pirates are basically going to wither and die out simply because all their "prey" is now more dangerous than they are. And that's without the Charisian Empire taking a special interest in them.

Heck, by the end of the war, I don't expect the Trellheim pirates to even exist anymore. Not as actual pirates anyway.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by thanatos   » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:36 pm

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evilauthor wrote:
lyonheart wrote:The information we have is very limited; according to OAR and BSRA, the small number of Trellheim pirate "kingdom/princedoms" had less than a half dozen galleys each, not worth combining with the KotTL supported fleet.


I'm sorry, but why would Sharleyan need to plan revenge against pirates armed only with obsolete galleys? Privately owned cannon armed galleons alone would pretty much obliterate any such pirate that tried to take them.

Without a cannon industry of their own or someone to supply them, the Trellheim pirates are basically going to wither and die out simply because all their "prey" is now more dangerous than they are. And that's without the Charisian Empire taking a special interest in them.

Heck, by the end of the war, I don't expect the Trellheim pirates to even exist anymore. Not as actual pirates anyway.


Back before steam engines were invented, pirates on the high seas were a serious problem, mostly because they were in fact very good ship handlers (at least those that survived long enough to have more than one ship under their command). With the advent of steam engines, pirates became effectively extinct because only countries could afford the construction and maintenance costs of steam powered ships and because the regular cargo haulers could outrun any sail-powered vessel. The same would apply in the post-Jihad Safehold, with fewer and fewer potential targets for pirates from Trellheim and their inability to build the necessary industry to construct and maintain their own steam-powered vessels. Sharleyan has already had her revenge against Hektor for financing those pirates and would only need to squeeze Trellheim politically and economically to bring about their collapse. Their own crews and slaves (if they have any) would turn on them and the Church would have to make the same calculations that the Harchongese prelates made as to whether supporting the regime is worth it for them. As for before the Jihad, it's a safe bet that the Church had intervened whenever war was brewing and they felt that one kingdom was threatening to get too powerful.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:28 pm

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Another point to consider is that Trellheim's pirates would evourage the adoption of steam powered shipping. The longer there was sail powered pirates, the more attractive steam powered merchies would be. Sharley wouldn't go out of her way to destroy Trellheim's pirates because they serve a purpose. That does'tmean the actual pirates who killed her father haven't come to a grisly end. Aamof, I am sure those guys are already suitably dealt with.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by jtg452   » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:03 pm

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There's no need to chase after that wild goose.

If She wants the pirates dealt with, a sweep by the ICN with a couple transports full of Marines will be all they need. A bunch of sloops with a few heavies and a couple bombardment ships for dealing with the strongholds (yes, that's overkill but you do want to send a message to the survivors) would scourge the seas clean of the pirates in short order.

NOTHING the Treilheimers have will be able to outsail those carronade armed Charisan sloops.

N O T H I N G.

Not in speed, not in handling and not in how close to the wind they can sail.

Galleys rowing dead in to the wind's eye may escape for the short-term since the sloops would have to tack and wear but the wind never tires and rowers most certainly do.

In other words, if they run, they just die tired.

All the sloop has to do is get close enough to open up with their Long Tom to put an end to the foolishness.

If they decide to engage instead of run, the results will be the same but would happen faster.

The larger forecastle guns of the galleys can be devastating but they are slow to load, fire and have a limited arc of fire. The long guns on the sloopsare mounted on a swiveling base, out range the forcastle galley guns, can fire explosive shells and have a higher rate of fire.

Don't even mention the broadside battery. Carronades are faster to fire than cannon and, being lighter, shorter guns, are usually MUCH larger bore than the ship would be able to carry in cannon. The 24pounder carronades weren't called 'Smashers' during the AoS for nothing.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:51 pm

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jtg452 wrote:There's no need to chase after that wild goose.

If She wants the pirates dealt with, a sweep by the ICN with a couple transports full of Marines will be all they need. A bunch of sloops with a few heavies and a couple bombardment ships for dealing with the strongholds (yes, that's overkill but you do want to send a message to the survivors) would scourge the seas clean of the pirates in short order.

NOTHING the Treilheimers have will be able to outsail those carronade armed Charisan sloops.

N O T H I N G.

Not in speed, not in handling and not in how close to the wind they can sail.

Galleys rowing dead in to the wind's eye may escape for the short-term since the sloops would have to tack and wear but the wind never tires and rowers most certainly do.

In other words, if they run, they just die tired.

All the sloop has to do is get close enough to open up with their Long Tom to put an end to the foolishness.

If they decide to engage instead of run, the results will be the same but would happen faster.

The larger forecastle guns of the galleys can be devastating but they are slow to load, fire and have a limited arc of fire. The long guns on the sloopsare mounted on a swiveling base, out range the forcastle galley guns, can fire explosive shells and have a higher rate of fire.

Don't even mention the broadside battery. Carronades are faster to fire than cannon and, being lighter, shorter guns, are usually MUCH larger bore than the ship would be able to carry in cannon. The 24pounder carronades weren't called 'Smashers' during the AoS for nothing.


Why bother sending obsolete sailing vessles against Trellheim? Send the City class ships backed up by Victory troop ships and be done.
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:48 am

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To put it simply - attacking anyone who you dislike just because you CAN, is a pretty bad policy. Charis already have a quite large empire, and most importantly, build by conquest and absorbtion of similary-developed (socially) nations. Sooner or later, Safehold would hit the nationalism era, and then the Charisian empire would be hard-hit with all kind of independence movements, like Austria-Hungary and Russian Empire (to the lesser extent, but just recall the Polish rebellions - they were such a pain in some rearward areas...). It would do no good for Charis to adding another bunch of peoples who would rebel with the first opportunity.
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P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:57 am

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thanatos wrote:Back before steam engines were invented, pirates on the high seas were a serious problem, mostly because they were in fact very good ship handlers (at least those that survived long enough to have more than one ship under their command). With the advent of steam engines, pirates became effectively extinct because only countries could afford the construction and maintenance costs of steam powered ships and because the regular cargo haulers could outrun any sail-powered vessel. .



Not completely correct. The piracy was on declune (outside East Asia) long before steam era. The main game-stopper was a carronade - weapon light enough for cargo ships to carry without sacrificing significant part of their cargo carpacity, and powerful on short distances. Pirates always preferred short-distance actions and boarding to artillery duels (because they would have no profit from shattered, rapidly sinking wreck), and carronades make close actions far too dangerous. On short range, merchant ship could have frigate-sized punch.

The second reason was the change in global politics. The declione of last remains of feudal era made piracy the common problem for all maritime powers, and, most importantly - allowing pirates in your port now led to political consequences, if victims government found about that.

And, simply geography. There were significantly less "terra incognita" in XVIII century, than in XVII. Most of territories were under more or less firm control/influence of some great powers, who did not want pirates nearby.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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