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TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)

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Re: TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)
Post by Julia Minor   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:14 am

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Magistos wrote:You have a country in PTSD, at least the northern part, it seems to me. Someone alluded to a new leader taking things in a different direction. How do we know it isn't a demagogue of some sort and Siddermark hasn't gone completely reactionary? They could be going completely nationalistic and arming up to avoid ever having such horrors inflicted again.


Merlin's drawn several Churchill parallels over the course of the series, maybe there's another one: like Churchill, Stohnar lost the first post-war election. Maybe the electorate (or his opponent for the Lord Protector post) thought he was being too soft or too hard on those Siddarmarkians who joined up with the Sword ... possibly both at once, since when does political rhetoric have to make logical sense?

Or, an even simpler reason, the stress of the Sword and the ensuing civil war did too much damage to Stohnar's health and he died sometime before the start of TFT. I hope that's not what happened, I like Stohnar, but with all those comments about how much he aged over the last couple books it's a valid possibility.
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Re: TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)
Post by thanatos   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:33 am

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Magistos wrote:To completely go off the rails, we are assuming it is something rational.

You have a country in PTSD, at least the northern part, it seems to me. Someone alluded to a new leader taking things in a different direction. How do we know it isn't a demagogue of some sort and Siddermark hasn't gone completely reactionary? They could be going completely nationalistic and arming up to avoid ever having such horrors inflicted again.

I have NOTHING to back this up. I'm simply throwing out another idea. I do wait to be entertained by the answer, and have a crap ton of books to read before TFT hits my ereader on a bright, happy morning a few months hence.


That is possible but inconsistent with the ending of ASTOT, which mentioned a huge gulf between Siddarmark and the Church. It's also inconsistent with the observed behavior of Stohnahr's government, especially with their wariness of Charis' "spy network" and the future political maneuverings they all knew would commence once the war was over.

First, Charis did save their bacon so to speak and all too many reformist Siddarmarkians were grateful to Charis and un-trusting of the Church after the Sword of Schueler. And with so many Temple Loyalists being refugees, I don't see how the remaining Siddarmarkian population would be willing to somehow accept Rhobair II's reforms at face value in so short a period of time (we are now 4 years after the Jihad) even if a little over half were neither Temple Loyalist or Church of Charis.

Second, the Inner Circle had specifically commissioned the King Haarahld-class of battleships to create the sort of naval threat that simply could not be ignored and that had to matched by a full embracing of industrialization in order to meet Charisian naval ships at sea with any chance of victory or at least survival. Siddarmark was mostly a land power before the Jihad but they really can't afford to go back to the status quo antebellum and trust that the Church will behave itself. Again, that sort of complacency takes a long time to develop. The same also applies to the question of air power that Charis was developing at the closing stages of the war, as only a drooling idiot would assume that Charis would stop there.
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Re: TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)
Post by Magistos   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:02 pm

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thanatos wrote:
That is possible but inconsistent with the ending of ASTOT, which mentioned a huge gulf between Siddarmark and the Church. It's also inconsistent with the observed behavior of Stohnahr's government, especially with their wariness of Charis' "spy network" and the future political maneuverings they all knew would commence once the war was over.


Agreed - inconsistent with STOHNAR's Government. But the point of my theory spit balling was the possibility that Stohnar ISN'T in charge any more.

thanatos wrote:
Second, the Inner Circle had specifically commissioned the King Haarahld-class of battleships to create the sort of naval threat that simply could not be ignored and that had to matched by a full embracing of industrialization in order to meet Charisian naval ships at sea with any chance of victory or at least survival. Siddarmark was mostly a land power before the Jihad but they really can't afford to go back to the status quo antebellum and trust that the Church will behave itself. Again, that sort of complacency takes a long time to develop. The same also applies to the question of air power that Charis was developing at the closing stages of the war, as only a drooling idiot would assume that Charis would stop there.


Agreed. But why should they trust Charisian tech? Maybe it's a case of right idea, wrong way, so they are going their own way.

Also - rational thought that I agree with, however, my whole point is that the people in charge and/or general populace may not BE rational.

I LOVE the analysis people display here, and here are some thoughts inspired by your response - It occurs to me to wonder, is RFC pulling on WWI, WWII or some other combination for inspiration and....how many years are past, we don't know. WWI and WWII were a generation apart. People were shocked at what Germany pulled off, and the US itself HAD gone back to being a sleeping giant. It's in the books that Roosevelt was desperately trying to get the US military back up to snuff before the US was dragged in, and Japan's whole plan was to consolidate power before the US DID get its military engine running (after attempting to knock out what the US already had.)

It's almost 70 years on and China - a great land power - is only in the last decade or so getting serious about naval power. It's had that million man army for years, though.
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Re: TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)
Post by Kael Posavatz   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:15 pm

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I have to wonder, since Siddermark, unlike every other realm, was warring against itself, if we shouldn't be looking to other periods for our historical parallels. The point about Churchill post-WWII is well-made, but perhaps a better point of comparison might be found in reconstruction-era America.
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Re: TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)
Post by SYED   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:56 pm

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West harchong might not want to fully industrialize, but I could see them adopting the temple land practices. Things like assembly circles. That way they can better use of their numbers while increasing production.
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Re: TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:24 pm

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Siddarmark may end up splitting into two: east being more Loyalist and West being more Reformist and glaring at each other across a DMZ like the Korea’s.
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Re: TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)
Post by Isilith   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:03 pm

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PlaysWithBees wrote:Siddarmark may end up splitting into two: east being more Loyalist and West being more Reformist and glaring at each other across a DMZ like the Korea’s.


Umm, I doubt that. As the eastern portion of Siddarmark had the vast majority of the population and wealth, as well as being of the "reformist" mindset. The west had the majority of their temple loyalists, as well as a far smaller population.
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Re: TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)
Post by evilauthor   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:36 pm

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Isilith wrote:
Umm, I doubt that. As the eastern portion of Siddarmark had the vast majority of the population and wealth, as well as being of the "reformist" mindset. The west had the majority of their temple loyalists, as well as a far smaller population.


And was also thoroughly conquered by the East and Charis. The Korean DMZ exists precisely because South Korea and forces allied with them (aka, the USA) couldn't take and hold North Korea, hence the truce which created the DMZ. At least not without expanding the war beyond Korea. That scenario just doesn't apply to Siddarmark.
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Re: TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)
Post by phillies   » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:12 pm

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One might also propose that Siddarmark does not trust the Church at all, and concludes that strong border defenses in those directions are central. Perhaps they had bad experiences with less outstanding Charisian manufacturers and industrialists, and view excluding foreigners as being central to their peace and prosperity.
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Re: TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)
Post by Randomiser   » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:25 am

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Problem with a lot of the speculation, with all respect to posters, is that Siddarmark cannot have peace, prosperity or a strong defence in the post-jihad world without industrialising for all it's worth, whoever is is in government, and that fact is glaringly obvious, not just to the politicians, but more importantly to the bankers and investment houses. The more suspicious they are of Charis, or anyone else, the more they need armaments, their own steam shipping, modern agricultural machinery, steam trains etc. - all built in Siddermark. The inner circle could not care less who's money is driving industrialisation in Siddermark. The fact they are concerned means whatever is happening is hindering industrialisation.
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