TFT Snippet #9 (fixed to satisfy smart alecs)

Joat42 wrote:

Alistair wrote:What the hell has happened in Siddarmark?? This snippet seems to suggest that Siddarmark is not the primary base for Charis industrial expansion.

That is a surprise if true after all they:

1.They won the war
2.They were industrializing even before the war ended.
3.They have a republic system of governance.

So what has happened in Siddarmark for it not to be the primary base for Charis industrial expansion?

I can see the western inland provinces spending decades recovering from the war and reconciling the Temple Loyalists and the church of Siddarmark but the old province and some of the eastern ones should be roaring along with developments.

If I would take a wild guess, they turned inwards because of all the horrors that befell them with the Sword of Schueler and the Jihad. So they distanced themselves from everyone while trying to rebuild, mend and to come to grips with the aftermath of the war.

I'm modifying my thought after re-reading the snippet - the relevant part is this:

TFT#9 wrote:Elayn’s absolutely right about how important stable, law-abiding local governance is if we expect anyone else to come along for the ride. Hell, that’s a big part of the problem—in a different way, of course—in Siddarmark!”

(Bolded part by me).

As someone remarked, they are a republic and we haven't got very much information on how the Siddarmarkian election system works and they may have gotten a new Lord Protector.

So it may be a combination of my earlier speculation combined with possibly a new Lord Protector with a different agenda.

Or it may be that Siddarmark is hunting down everyone from the Sword of Schueler and are having the equivalent of the Nürnberg trials at the cost of everything else.

There's all that Northern bit of Siddarmark that got thoroughly trashed and almost everybody refugeed out, Temple Loyalists and Loyal Siddarmarkians in different directions, those that didn't get sent to the camps, that is. Imagine trying to protect them from each other as some of them move back in and imagine trying to sort out conflicting land claims from the different groups. The government is going to be plenty busy and have lots of its money tied up in disaster relief. OTH Charis saved their bacon completely that first winter, both in food aid and with military intervention. Charis is the reason they won and still have a country. So I will be interested to see what is actually holding Siddarmark back from industrial adoption, according to our wise and wonderful author.

Dilandu wrote:

“We do what Charisians do best, Your Majesty.” She gave him a quirky smile. “We invest. We take those islands of stability and expand them into islands of prosperity.”

Was tried in post-war China, then in Vietnam, partially in South Korea (in 1960s the average life level in "communists hell" on the North was significantly higher than in "free paradise" of South)... the results are pretty trivial. Funds are stolen, misused, mismanaged by corrupt & incompetent local powermongers. Eventually the "investor" is forced to took direct control over "islands of prosperity" (before they became actually worse than "not so prosperous" parts), after which "investor" turned into "invader" in the eyes of locals. After this, the best plan is usually to pull out as fast as its possible.

Anyway, thanks for a new snippet!

There were at least two things that hampered Western investment efforts during that period. One was the cultural difference between East and Southeast Asia and Western Europe. England, France and Germany were all industrialized countries before WWII and the US was basically offering them loans to repair the damage caused by WWII and to rebuild their economies. Their societies and cultures were willing to work with the American model and accept American terms for that assistance even if their national pride was wounded as a result. The same cannot be said about the various Asian cultures the US had to deal with, which were very different from American culture and which led to ever increasing clashes between the respective officials involved. The second problem was competition with the Soviet Union, who attempted a similar approach and attempted to expand its influence throughout the third world.

In this context, Merlin is looking at the problem with a historical perspective. If the societal matrix in the two provinces mentioned here are sufficiently similar to Charis, then they should not expect a cultural clash that would hamper the local's acceptance of Charisian largess. And given that the only other power that would be ideologically opposed to Charis (the Church) is not in a position to assist the Harchongese financially or even militarily, especially in an era without instant communication, then Charis is not going to encounter much resistance to their secret objective of rapid industrialization.

I am curious though what Charis' problems are with Siddarmark. Is it a refusal to be as generous as Charis and spread those innovations as far and wide as possible for the exact reasons Delthak mentions?

Thanks David Weber for new snippet.

Dilandu

Would beg to differ.
It would work assuming graft free administration

For South Korea, it did work as the depredations were kept to minimum (less than 5%) so it became more like an informal tax

For South Vietnam, there were numerous factors caused by great depredations and the fact that funds for security became funds for enrichment and not helped by great power rivalry, whilst changes in head of state due to certain machinations were to say not helpful.

For post war China, it was the same problem as South Vietnam. Corruption hit the common person daily at the time, well, the results are as seen.

Hence DW statement of graft free administration definitely helps or even if such depredations are minimal and not affecting daily life of the common person

Regards
fwtopcat
singapore

Dilandu wrote:

“We do what Charisians do best, Your Majesty.” She gave him a quirky smile. “We invest. We take those islands of stability and expand them into islands of prosperity.”

Was tried in post-war China, then in Vietnam, partially in South Korea (in 1960s the average life level in "communists hell" on the North was significantly higher than in "free paradise" of South)... the results are pretty trivial. Funds are stolen, misused, mismanaged by corrupt & incompetent local powermongers. Eventually the "investor" is forced to took direct control over "islands of prosperity" (before they became actually worse than "not so prosperous" parts), after which "investor" turned into "invader" in the eyes of locals. After this, the best plan is usually to pull out as fast as its possible.

Anyway, thanks for a new snippet!

thanatos wrote:
SNIP


I am curious though what Charis' problems are with Siddarmark. Is it a refusal to be as generous as Charis and spread those innovations as far and wide as possible for the exact reasons Delthak mentions?

Nope.

runsforcelery wrote:

thanatos wrote:
SNIP


I am curious though what Charis' problems are with Siddarmark. Is it a refusal to be as generous as Charis and spread those innovations as far and wide as possible for the exact reasons Delthak mentions?

Nope.

don't you just hate it when Himself does that!

isaac_newton wrote:

thanatos wrote:
SNIP


I am curious though what Charis' problems are with Siddarmark. Is it a refusal to be as generous as Charis and spread those innovations as far and wide as possible for the exact reasons Delthak mentions?

runsforcelery wrote:Nope.

don't you just hate it when Himself does that!

Why? The answer has the benefit to be accurate and to the point. Ok, maybe it's a little bit short - but the long one is part of the book which we'll get soon (and maybe even part of a snippet, in which case we'll get it even sooner). So what? You've only to exercise in patience ... in which we all should've practice. 6 month down the road we'll all know it - providing that some minor hiccups like ... oh, the eruption of the Yellowstone-Caldera or a meteoritic impact or so doesn't happen to come along in the meantime

runsforcelery wrote:

thanatos wrote:
SNIP


I am curious though what Charis' problems are with Siddarmark. Is it a refusal to be as generous as Charis and spread those innovations as far and wide as possible for the exact reasons Delthak mentions?

Nope.

You evil man.


(Also, belated very sincere thanks for your welcome. I admit I was overcome with gratitude, thus my lack of acknowledgment earlier!)

runsforcelery wrote:

thanatos wrote:
SNIP


I am curious though what Charis' problems are with Siddarmark. Is it a refusal to be as generous as Charis and spread those innovations as far and wide as possible for the exact reasons Delthak mentions?

Nope.

The implication of the snippet's context suggests Siddermark is hesitant in accepting Charisian investment. I suspect they aren't averse to the investment but are averse to foreign partners. Yes, Charis saved their bacon, but it was Charisian financial success that sparked Clyntahn's Jihad. Charisian innovation is a very sharp two-sided sword that cuts both ways and elements of Siddermark may have grown especially wary of it. So, even if the appetite for industrialization exists in Siddermark, the spread may he significantly hindered by an eversion to accept foreign investment and local capital is insufficient to rebuild their war torn nation, maintain their military against future aggression AND industrialize.

To completely go off the rails, we are assuming it is something rational.

You have a country in PTSD, at least the northern part, it seems to me. Someone alluded to a new leader taking things in a different direction. How do we know it isn't a demagogue of some sort and Siddermark hasn't gone completely reactionary? They could be going completely nationalistic and arming up to avoid ever having such horrors inflicted again.

I have NOTHING to back this up. I'm simply throwing out another idea. I do wait to be entertained by the answer, and have a crap ton of books to read before TFT hits my ereader on a bright, happy morning a few months hence.