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Nahrmahn's opening round

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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:56 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:I'm struggling to think what their ecological purpose would be on a last-ditch survival mission.


Pest Control -- one of the main reasons cats domesticated humans to start with.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by thanatos   » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:57 pm

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phillies wrote:
NHBL wrote:Regarding the animals: It seems that anything with the modifier "lizard" refers to a critter that has 6 limbs, so "Cat lizard" isn't a contradiction, it simply means that the critters known as "cat" have 6 legs, whereas "dog" is a beast with only 4 limbs. Thus, the language there isn't a problem. "Nearoak" can be, unless there's also "oaks"


Are there also real cats?


** Spoiler Alert **

Have they ever known about Terran cats or heard them called that? This line of attack is easily fended off by stating that its nitpicking on names chosen arbitrarily by the "Archangel" who knew best. Remember that Eastshare was able to dismiss the evidence that the Inner Circle was presenting to him because it wasn't "proof" that they were telling the truth and that the "Archangels" had lied - and that everything he believed in was therefore a lie. This is probably the sort of response Staynair feared might come from Earl Grey Harbor had he been told the truth, and what Sharleyan fears might come from her mother and from Baron Green Mountain. These are people who are willing to dismiss evidence even when they can see or touch it themselves because they truly believe that it is a demonic creation. They have the Writ's ready made answer to such things and neither need nor want further explanations. That's what they are up against with many people on Safehold - People who believe so strongly that they will dismiss any evidence that contradicts those beliefs and who will rationalize their actions and experiences through the prism of those beliefs (Eastshare actually says that God could choose to act through a monster like Clyntahn).

So whatever is Nahrmahn's opening round, it has to be something more profound than nitpicking on names and minor curiosities in the text of the Writ. Perceiving the philosophical contradiction between the part of the Writ that speaks of a loving God and the cruel God of the later books (Schueler and Chihiro) is useful in creating an initial mindset of doubt but is still not enough to undermine truly entrenched faith in the word of God. You would need to get to the point whereby an overwhelming majority of Safeholdian would question the divinity or semi-divinity of an Archangel, even if they saw one face to face. People who have grown up in an industrialized / mechanized society tend to understand enough of the devices and machines they use on a day to day basis to perceive any more advanced technology within that context rather than as magical or miraculous tools. Consider the movie Jumanji, when the young Alan and Sarah start playing the game in 1969 and they see the pieces move on their own, they think that it must have magnets in it. When Judy and Peter play the game in 1995 and see the same thing, they think that the game must have microchips in it. Safehold needs to reach the point where they can see through the visual effects and think "technological trickery" and not "miracle".
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Joat42   » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:00 pm

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There are a lot do's and don'ts in the writ that doesn't really explain why except God wills it or an archangel said so.

It should be somewhat trivial to attack the writ by proving that in some cases the do's are really don'ts and vice versa.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by dobriennm   » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:51 pm

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Joat42 wrote:There are a lot do's and don'ts in the writ that doesn't really explain why except God wills it or an archangel said so.

It should be somewhat trivial to attack the writ by proving that in some cases the do's are really don'ts and vice versa.



Well, not so easy.

According to what textev we have from the author, lots of things have an explanation for phenomenon that "work" in providing predictable results, particularly in what people encounter in a pre-industrialized age. Chemical processes seem to work the way the Writ says it will, certain prohibited processes cause health problems (curses) as predicted in the Writ, the heavenly bodies seem to move according to the epicycles expounded in the Writ, clearing Unconsecrated ground seems to work like laid out in the Writ, etc.

Most of the things that would contradict the Writ will be a lot more subtle and wouldn't be available to the ordinary"person in the street" to check firsthand. The ordinary person would have to have an established, very large base of trusted scientists/engineers who all contradict the Writ based on their experiences.

After all, Darwin's theory of Evolution was vehemently denied in our history by the various churches and we had an established base of very forward thinking scientists and engineers.

For Safehold, think more Galileo as an immediate response.

Finally,for something to undermine the Writ, you really need any kind of "evidence" to come from or be discovered by the Temple COGA. Only then would it be believed by some of Safehold's population
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Annachie   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:57 am

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Makes me wonder, what language they speak on Safehold.

After all, Auto-de-fe has no direct english translation.

Poop deck gets weird if the word poop has survived as a synonym for poo and you don't know french.

Near-whatever implies that there should be a whatever. But there generally isn't. It would really stand out if a couple of whatevers actually existed.

If all the Adams were created at the same time, why do some look different. Harchonnese and the epithanic fold, short Charisians etc. Why ethnic/regional differences.

For that matter, why the channel system the way it is. Not the newer stuff, the ones created by the archangels. They all seem to go east from Zion. Few, if any, go west.

Slightly drunken minds want to know. ;)
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by dobriennm   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:47 pm

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Annachie wrote:Makes me wonder, what language they speak on Safehold.

After all, Auto-de-fe has no direct english translation.

Poop deck gets weird if the word poop has survived as a synonym for poo and you don't know french.

Near-whatever implies that there should be a whatever. But there generally isn't. It would really stand out if a couple of whatevers actually existed.

If all the Adams were created at the same time, why do some look different. Harchonnese and the epithanic fold, short Charisians etc. Why ethnic/regional differences.

For that matter, why the channel system the way it is. Not the newer stuff, the ones created by the archangels. They all seem to go east from Zion. Few, if any, go west.

Slightly drunken minds want to know. ;)


They speak Terran Standard - whatever that is!

Lets face it, any author has everyone speaking contemporary [English] (or whatever language the book is written in) so the reader can understand what's said. Heck, I've seen authors show aliens speaking in their own language by putting brackets around essentially the English translation {Zarc said [Surrender, vile Human], pointing the blaster at John's face} (that made-up quote is why I'M not an author :D )

Whether they say auto-de-fe, poop deck or some other phrases. the author has to use something the reader can relate to and understand without a long explanation.

I think (though I'm not sure) the Author may have even said he somewhat regretted using non-standard English names as they are harder to pronounce and are somewhat confusing to the reader. Though I think it does help set the picture of a different planet/culture.

As for the near-whatevers, who knows how it plays out, But again, probably too subtle to cause any disturbance to the proverbial "man in the street". Same for any other language peculiarities . After all, even the spoken languages are different from place to place and are different from how it was originally spoken on the Day of Creation.

And as for the differences in the Adams, there could be some explanation in the Writ for that which we haven't heard/seen. Even if it's "God willed it".

As for the canal system going east from Zion and not west, that's mainly a function of available water/rivers and topography. They can't make water run uphill. After all, they weren't real Archangels and couldn't produce real miracles. (As best I can tell, there are mountains to the west of Zion which are very extensive/high and block all paths west. Plus at the time of creation, all the people were in enclaves along the southern coast, not in the frigid north. So no reason to make a canal thru there)
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Michael Everett   » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:43 pm

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I think it'll be books of fairy tales.
During the Rescue of Prince Daivyn and Princess Irys, it is noted in the text that during the escape, Merlin helped to keep Daivyn from panicking by telling him a series of tales that Irys had never heard before.

With some planetary localization, we could get things such as "Goldilocks and the Three Great Dragons", the "Three Little Crag-lizards And The Big Bad Slash-Lizard", "Cinderella and her Seijin-Godmother", "Tarzan, Lord Of The Ape-Lizards" and so on.

It'd be interesting to see how Aladdin could be converted to Safeholdian given the lack of Djinn-equivalents.
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