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Nahrmahn's opening round

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Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Tararoys   » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:13 pm

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In snippet 2, Merlin muses,

And I do like Nahrmahn's notion about the opening round if we decide a tim'es come when we can go after the inerrancy of the Writ.

Let's speculate madly about Nahrmahn's opening round!

Elsewhere, people have discussed breaking the writ by questioning the ptolomaic version of the universe.

I don't think that's a good opening round. Why? Well, astronomers could say 'hey! We measured this and it doesn't match the writ!' But the only people who could possibly check it are other astronomers. Other, highly trained scholars. Not normal people, in other words.

I think the best way to crack the writ is to do so in a way that, once it's pointed out to an ordinary person, the'll say, "Hey! Why didn't I ever see that before?" Something that everyone in the world can immediately see, and sink their teeth into.

Here's my guess. The book of Scheuler is an add-on. Betcha it's extremist doctrines flatly contradicts the book of Langhorne's assertions that God is a loving god. And betcha people don't like to read the book of Schueler much, so they don't focus on how a lesser angel like Scheuler flatly contradicts the Archangel Langhorne himself. But then Nahrmahn comes along an asked...these are two different versions of God. So...which version of God is real?

And thus the can of worms is opened!
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Whitecold   » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:24 pm

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The trouble with that is that compared to Merlins original copy, the entire writ had been heavily edited, not just the book of schueler added. So some consistency editions have been performed.
I seriously doubt Nahrmahn can come up with any simple, convincing argument in the writ that has not been found by hundreds of scholars before, and discussed at length in times before Clynthan made any rational discourse impossible.

Possibly unearthing some original federation-tech manufactured copies could be interesting. Or manufacturing replicas in Nimue's Cave if no such copies can be found.
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:10 pm

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Whitecold wrote:The trouble with that is that compared to Merlins original copy, the entire writ had been heavily edited, not just the book of schueler added. So some consistency editions have been performed.


Exactly. Chichiro might not be as genius as Langhorne, but he clearly was clever enough to get rid of all obvious contradictions.

Whitecold wrote:Possibly unearthing some original federation-tech manufactured copies could be interesting. Or manufacturing replicas in Nimue's Cave if no such copies can be found.


Not sure it would work, actually. It would be too easy to claim that those original versions were written before Shain-Wei rebellion, and thus they represent "original God's plan for untainted Safehold - which, sadly, is no longer valid". Actually, something like that was probably preformed by Church to replace the original version with edited.
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- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Whitecold   » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:57 pm

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Dilandu wrote:Not sure it would work, actually. It would be too easy to claim that those original versions were written before Shain-Wei rebellion, and thus they represent "original God's plan for untainted Safehold - which, sadly, is no longer valid". Actually, something like that was probably preformed by Church to replace the original version with edited.


The book of Schueler has been added afterwards, and this is common knowledge, but if I remember right also references have been slipped into the books just to make the archangels look prophetic and anticipating the entire war from the start.
This has nothing to do with doctrine, but just with vanity.
To my knowledge, the other books are assumed to be unchanged since creation.
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by thanatos   » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:12 pm

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I think Nahrmahn's opening salvo is that "Lost Testimony of Schueler" RFC mentioned a while back. The Inner Circle could in fact collate anything imagery they have on him into a coherent projection of him admitting what they did or at least making a serious contradiction of the Writ and start spreading it around Safehold. It wouldn't be a lie because Schueler did in fact say all of those things, if only to the other "archangels", so even if the Church denies the testimony's veracity or even if some electronic avatar of Schueler claims that it is a lie, the Inner Circle would still be telling the truth. Remember that when they pounced on the rebellion that Sharleyan's nobles had launched, they were willing to present perfect copies of the documents sent between the nobles as long as those documents were destroyed without any inconvenient witnesses. This would be a similar undertaking, presenting evidence that would be impossible for people to refute because it was presented in the same indestructible materials as the documents in the Temple.
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Annachie   » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:38 pm

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The obvious, to me, is breaking something in the temple and showing that it uses electrickery.
A direct violation of the proscriptions.
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by zyffyr   » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:56 pm

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Annachie wrote:The obvious, to me, is breaking something in the temple and showing that it uses electrickery.
A direct violation of the proscriptions.



The Temple was created by the Angels. It is forbidden for Man to meddle with Electricity because that is the exclusive domain of God and the Angels. No violation here.
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Randomiser   » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:38 am

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thanatos wrote:I think Nahrmahn's opening salvo is that "Lost Testimony of Schueler" RFC mentioned a while back. The Inner Circle could in fact collate anything imagery they have on him into a coherent projection of him admitting what they did or at least making a serious contradiction of the Writ and start spreading it around Safehold. It wouldn't be a lie because Schueler did in fact say all of those things, if only to the other "archangels", so even if the Church denies the testimony's veracity or even if some electronic avatar of Schueler claims that it is a lie, the Inner Circle would still be telling the truth. Remember that when they pounced on the rebellion that Sharleyan's nobles had launched, they were willing to present perfect copies of the documents sent between the nobles as long as those documents were destroyed without any inconvenient witnesses. This would be a similar undertaking, presenting evidence that would be impossible for people to refute because it was presented in the same indestructible materials as the documents in the Temple.


And 3D moving holographic images with sound are not obvious evidence that the EOC is trafficking with demons? How come?
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by Julia Minor   » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:35 am

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As I recall, Nynian told Merlin during their "hi, I figured out you're also Ahbraim" chat that the Testimonies had been censored. Could there be solid evidence of that censorship in existence, maybe in the Inquisition's files?

The Testimonies may have been written by mortals, but they're still an important part of the underpinning for CoGA. Proving that the Church was playing games with them would weaken the Church's position without being a direct attack on the Archangels.

We know Merlin manages to get a peek inside the Temple at some point, and that would be the logical place for any of that evidence to be stored.
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Re: Nahrmahn's opening round
Post by DirkF   » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:32 am

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There is something that is much easier to use as an opening round, and much harder to ignore.

"Check your own language:
If a tree is nearly an oak (nearoak), then what is an oak?
If a fish is nearly a tuna (neartuna), then what is a tuna?
If an animal is called spider-monkey (two words, not one), then what is a spider and what is a monkey?
Comparative naming works only if you have something to compare to, another place before Safehold. Those names where given by those who still remembered what was before but gave an oath to never tell those that were made to forget"

The opening round doesn't need to be impressive - but it needs to be something that can't easily be ignored or explained away.
Add a few pictures of earth that were "misteriously found" somewhere and you'll have something that strikes at the heart of the writ without even breaking the proscriptions.
Because once it is clear that there was something before creation that was just hidden to be forgotten, then you can ask a lot of other questions...
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