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The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ

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Re: The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ
Post by Bluesqueak   » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:07 pm

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Kael Posavatz wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Well, was it Langhorne?

I mean, yeah, Merlin thinks it was Langhorne, but Merlin hasn't got a clue who really wrote the Writ. So it might have been Langhorne, or it might have been someone else's idea. Someone with a long term plan for the destruction of the COGA.

Remember that the original plan was to lie low for several centuries. The Ptolomaic view of the universe might be someone's little time bomb. They persuaded Langhorne and/or Chihiro that keeping the colonists on the surface of Safehold will be ever so much easier if they're specifically told that there is nothing beyond the local system. But the real plan was always to provide a 'proof text' that the Writ is not, in fact, inerrant.

They know it will take a very, very long time for their time bomb to go off - but that's fine, because they agree absolutely that the longer Safehold stays hidden, the better. They just don't want the technical freeze to last forever...



Now that is a very interesting idea. We know, now, that there were...factions among the command crew. It's been heavily implied that there was at least one major power play, and it certainly seems like most had their own little side-plots going (not sure how else Schuyler could be passing out 'holy' lie-detectors and paperweights).

But I see three problems with it

1) It gives humanity the worst of both worlds. They would no longer be 'safe' in their ignorance, but they wouldn't know about the real threat either.

2) The Inquisition has authority/power Torquemada couldn't dream of. Galileo got off easy in comparison.

Three comes back to the inherent truthfulness of the Writ. It wasn't until the 1820s that the Catholic Church got behind the heliocentric model, and not until 1890-something that Pope LeoXIII wrote that science and the bible don't contradict each other, that scientists needed to keep in mind that the Bible hadn't been written to describe the natural world, and biblical scholars needed to also be aware that biblical authors may have used figurative language.

The Writ, however, does describe the natural world. It does so to the point that non-powered terraforming (unconsecrated lands) is on-going. Surgery is routinely survivable. Sanitation for large cities and army camps is very much a thing. For that matter, Hasting's (admittedly not self-updating) maps give an Angel's-eye view of the physical world on the day of creation.


Yup, there are problems with it. Nothing a good novelist couldn't solve, however. Possibly with a religious war, though. :lol:

1) You'd need to have a second string to the dynamite of the incorrect Writ. Dunno what. A holy paperweight, maybe? Full of unspecified data? With instructions to the Wylsynns to 'break glass if the church is in danger'?

Doesn't have to be that; by now we the readers have been carefully primed to accept that there were several alternative accounts of 'Creation' and the 'Writ', and that some of them have survived by means of extremely secret societies.

2) Yes, the Inquisition is (in my mind) the biggest evidence that the Book of Schuler wasn't written by the same guy who left the Wylsynns that message. Because the writer of the Book of Schuler must have been a frothing lunatic. And that idea fits Chihiro (extremism in the pursuit of godliness can never be a sin) much better than the sensible, stern-but-fair bloke we see in the Wylsynn's hologram letter.

However, the Inquisition instructions appear in Writ Mk. 2. The Ptolomaic universe appears in Writ Mk. 1. I don't think you can use the Inquisition as a problem for inserting a 'time-bomb' Ptolomaic view, because when that view was inserted, the Inquisition didn't exist and hadn't been thought of. Yes, it was an authoritarian church, but it hadn't yet reached the depths of the Punishment.

3) That is what you might call the 'simplified' version of the history; it misses out rather a lot of people playing around with the idea of a heliocentric universe, but basically deciding 'no way of proving it, anyway'. It also misses out the Catholic church agreeing (by way of St Augustine) that the scriptures often conflict with the natural world.

I think the relevance of this for Safehold is that the Catholic Church then, after all this consideration of 'don't take Scripture literally', took a bit of a step backwards post-Reformation, into a far more rigid literalism than would ever have been accepted by the earlier church. It's possible that once Saint Robhair dies, the COGA might well react the same way - especially since, as you say, the rest of the Writ is written in line with the original expedition's up-to-date scientific knowledge.

But the problem with a very rigid literalism is that once it breaks, it breaks. If everything in the Writ is right, what do people do when it's proved that everything isn't right?
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Re: The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:35 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:Early Terran astronomers spotted the discrepancies in the Ptolomaic system in part because we have some visible-to-the-eye planets sharing our solar system, which meant there was something to see acting oddly. Are there other planets in the Safehold system? I don't recall a mention one way or another, but if it's just Safehold and a single moon Langhorne (or whoever) might have assumed a simplified Ptolomaic cosmology wouldn't fail the way the original did.


I won't say it's impossible, but it would be extraordinarily unlikely to get a single planet system where the one planet was life supporting. The mechanics of how the stellar dust clouds begin to clump together and form planets during the formation of those systems just doesn't lend itself to one single rocky planet and nothing else of significant size or other compositions forming in the star's orbit.
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Re: The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ
Post by saber964   » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:34 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
Julia Minor wrote:Early Terran astronomers spotted the discrepancies in the Ptolomaic system in part because we have some visible-to-the-eye planets sharing our solar system, which meant there was something to see acting oddly. Are there other planets in the Safehold system? I don't recall a mention one way or another, but if it's just Safehold and a single moon Langhorne (or whoever) might have assumed a simplified Ptolomaic cosmology wouldn't fail the way the original did.


I won't say it's impossible, but it would be extraordinarily unlikely to get a single planet system where the one planet was life supporting. The mechanics of how the stellar dust clouds begin to clump together and form planets during the formation of those systems just doesn't lend itself to one single rocky planet and nothing else of significant size or other compositions forming in the star's orbit.



IIRC the Safehold system has a asteroid belt. So it's likely to have other planets.
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Re: The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ
Post by Kael Posavatz   » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:35 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:1) You'd need to have a second string to the dynamite of the incorrect Writ. Dunno what. A holy paperweight, maybe? Full of unspecified data? With instructions to the Wylsynns to 'break glass if the church is in danger'?

Doesn't have to be that; by now we the readers have been carefully primed to accept that there were several alternative accounts of 'Creation' and the 'Writ', and that some of them have survived by means of extremely secret societies.

String 1: Nimue

String 2: Establish counter-cults all across Safehold starting in Tellesburg

String 3: Some of the colonists were Illuminati (possibly Freemasons, but I'm going with Illuminati) and Bedard failed to make them forget that they were Illuminati because it isn't a secret society if everyone knows who is in it.


Bluesqueak wrote:But the problem with a very rigid literalism is that once it breaks, it breaks. If everything in the Writ is right, what do people do when it's proved that everything isn't right?


And that right there is what has been bothering me about this.

It's sort of like one of those emergency cases you mentioned. "In case of cult, break Ptolemy." But I don't see Langhorne as willing to create such a safety measure, and I do see him as rational (and smart) enough to recognize it for what it has the potential to be if someone else happened to think it a Good Idea.
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Re: The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:35 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:

I think the relevance of this for Safehold is that the Catholic Church then, after all this consideration of 'don't take Scripture literally', took a bit of a step backwards post-Reformation, into a far more rigid literalism than would ever have been accepted by the earlier church. It's possible that once Saint Robhair dies, the COGA might well react the same way - especially since, as you say, the rest of the Writ is written in line with the original expedition's up-to-date scientific knowledge.

But the problem with a very rigid literalism is that once it breaks, it breaks. If everything in the Writ is right, what do people do when it's proved that everything isn't right?


You kind of answered your own question. They do one of 3 things in general.

1. They realize the story is false.

2. They refuse to give up on the story, but back off their requirement of a purely literal interpretation and redefine anything wrong as "metaphor". (How do they know if it was meant as metaphor? If they discover it's wrong it was supposed to be a metaphor.)

3. They refuse to give up on the story and just flat out deny reality. See: Young Earth Creationists, etc...
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Re: The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ
Post by Bluesqueak   » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:11 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
You kind of answered your own question.


Tends to be the case when the question is rhetorical. :D
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Re: The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ
Post by evilauthor   » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:15 am

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Julia Minor wrote:Early Terran astronomers spotted the discrepancies in the Ptolomaic system in part because we have some visible-to-the-eye planets sharing our solar system, which meant there was something to see acting oddly. Are there other planets in the Safehold system? I don't recall a mention one way or another, but if it's just Safehold and a single moon Langhorne (or whoever) might have assumed a simplified Ptolomaic cosmology wouldn't fail the way the original did.


There has to be other planets in the system visible in Safehold's skies. If there weren't, there'd be no need for the epicycle system in the first place because no one on Safehold would observe planets appearing to reverse their motion.

Epicycles were invented to explain why planets reversed motion. That reversed motion was actually the result of one planet catching up with and passing another planet in their orbits around the local sun. If no other planets are visible in Safehold's skies, then no one would observe epicycles.

That said, the Safehold system could be some freak of nature where mathematically predicted epicycles exactly matches up with actual observed planetary motion.
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Re: The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ
Post by Louis R   » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:16 pm

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Actually, the Ptolemaic system can be very accurate. What Safehold is lacking is the mathematical tools to recognize just how kludged together the equations they've been given are.

The cumulative error should be periodic, which is why it can be reduced by piling on more epicycles, so if it were me I'd provide a table of correction factors and the epochs they are good for with the explanation that "God has concealed in the heavens a truth beyond the understanding of men". Which would have the merit of being true. Well, the "concealed" part would be, anyway.

evilauthor wrote:
Julia Minor wrote:Early Terran astronomers spotted the discrepancies in the Ptolomaic system in part because we have some visible-to-the-eye planets sharing our solar system, which meant there was something to see acting oddly. Are there other planets in the Safehold system? I don't recall a mention one way or another, but if it's just Safehold and a single moon Langhorne (or whoever) might have assumed a simplified Ptolomaic cosmology wouldn't fail the way the original did.


There has to be other planets in the system visible in Safehold's skies. If there weren't, there'd be no need for the epicycle system in the first place because no one on Safehold would observe planets appearing to reverse their motion.

Epicycles were invented to explain why planets reversed motion. That reversed motion was actually the result of one planet catching up with and passing another planet in their orbits around the local sun. If no other planets are visible in Safehold's skies, then no one would observe epicycles.

That said, the Safehold system could be some freak of nature where mathematically predicted epicycles exactly matches up with actual observed planetary motion.
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Re: The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ
Post by Whitecold   » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:58 am

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I'd like to note that there is little evidence that anyone ever used more than a single epicycle to do calculations.
The main benefit of the keplerian system was that it was easier to calculate.
Observations by eye fit the Ptolemaic system still very, very well, for more accurate observations telescopes were needed.

Of course, Safehold has much improved optics available...

Louis R wrote:Actually, the Ptolemaic system can be very accurate. What Safehold is lacking is the mathematical tools to recognize just how kludged together the equations they've been given are.

The cumulative error should be periodic, which is why it can be reduced by piling on more epicycles, so if it were me I'd provide a table of correction factors and the epochs they are good for with the explanation that "God has concealed in the heavens a truth beyond the understanding of men". Which would have the merit of being true. Well, the "concealed" part would be, anyway.

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Re: The importance of Truth in the Holy Writ
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:59 am

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Whitecold wrote:I'd like to note that there is little evidence that anyone ever used more than a single epicycle to do calculations.
The main benefit of the keplerian system was that it was easier to calculate.
Observations by eye fit the Ptolemaic system still very, very well, for more accurate observations telescopes were needed.

Of course, Safehold has much improved optics available...

Louis R wrote:Actually, the Ptolemaic system can be very accurate. What Safehold is lacking is the mathematical tools to recognize just how kludged together the equations they've been given are.

The cumulative error should be periodic, which is why it can be reduced by piling on more epicycles, so if it were me I'd provide a table of correction factors and the epochs they are good for with the explanation that "God has concealed in the heavens a truth beyond the understanding of men". Which would have the merit of being true. Well, the "concealed" part would be, anyway.




going back to something I asked earlier... do you know in what form these calculations [and the original observations] were stored? do we have any of such records?
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