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TFT snippet #6

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Re: TFT snippet #6
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:51 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
Dilandu wrote:A question: how much Harchong is a "hydraulic" empire, i.e. how much its agriculture rely on large-scale irrigation projects (like in ancient China)?



Large scale agricultural irrigation is more a factor in South Harchong than in the North. It is not an enormous part of either portion of the empire, however.


Hm. So they arent essentially "hydraulic", and maintenance of national-scale bureaucracy and order is not essential for survival. The rebellion might be ugly; a good probability of total balkanization of North Harcong.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: TFT snippet #6
Post by Henry Brown   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:35 am

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SYED wrote:How big is the spears? If they loss a third to the war effort, and 15 000 to the fire, their numbers might be limited, or at least dispersed in the empire. I wonder how much of the military material of the city survived to be salvaged.

That work gangs sound like perfect recruits for the new army.


They should have recovered from transferring 1/3 of their men to the mighty host. That was years ago and the snippet says they gave up their least experienced personnel. But the 2nd part of your point is a good one. How big a percentage of the spears is 15,000 men? Also keep in mind that they also lost the men guarding the rifle caravan (nearly 1,000 men) and however many men they had stationed in the city. So when you factor those in, the spears have lost well over 15,000 men in a short period of time.
Last edited by Henry Brown on Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TFT snippet #6
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:15 am

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Annachie wrote:The river being so close wasn't that clear. Actually the opposite was my impression, since there'd be the need for a good fire front to develope before the Spear's horse tries to run it to the river. Especially if they know it's there.
Start the fire too close and it wont. Even with the fire drifting up wind.

Maybe half a mile to a mile.



I didn't say the SPEARS were close to the river. They aren't. In fact, they are miles away and I was addressing the question of how Syngpu's peasants could be close enough to the river to get clear.

The whole point here is that the time window was set to make sure the target would be trapped between the fire fronts. I could have given it to you blow-by-blow (if I'd thought it wasn't fairly self evident that there had to be careful coordination here) but the actual operation was simple enough.

Band #1 is stationed 30 miles west of the river.

Band #2 is stationed at the river, but far enough into the woods that no one's going to spot them unless the Spears are doing proper flank security (which we have already established --- and the peasants have determined --- they don't do).

Peasant from Band #2, mounted on Band #2's best horse, is sent off when runner comes in from farther east that the Spears are now an hour or two from the river, headed west. Before leaving, Syngpu tells him "Have Band #1 start their fires at 13:30, because that will let the Spears get at least 20 miles west of the river."

Peasant courier heads off, pushing the pace so that he'll reach Band #1 at least an hour and a half or so before the Spears. When he gets there, Band #1 spreads out to set their part of the fire. Meanwhile, Band #2 lies low in the woods and watches the Spears cross the river. Once their rearguard is out of sight headed west, they get their horses (hidden at least a mile into the woods) and spread themselves on either side of the high road, ready to do their part.

13:30 rolls around, both fires get set. The fire coming from the west has 10 miles to build strength; fire coming from the east has 10 miles of depth between it and the rearguard. And in both cases, the fires are far enough out that the Spears aren't going to start smelling smoke until the flames have really taken hold.

As I say, if I'd thought it was necessary for the story to spell all that out, I would have, but I get critiques enough for my info dumps as it is. You guys probably wouldn't believe how often I consciously decide not to tell you something to help keep word count down and the pace moving.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: TFT snippet #6
Post by NervousEnergy   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:25 am

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A page of infodump from the MWW is better than 5 pages from most any other author. :D

I'm surprised at how fast this story is moving. When the first snippet landed I thought most of this volume would be the revolution in North Harchong. A few snippets in and the capitol has fallen, the emperor likely dead, and serf insurgency on a roll.

Cant wait to get the whole thing. Pre-ordered and ready to read...
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Re: TFT snippet #6
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:39 am

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NervousEnergy wrote:A page of infodump from the MWW is better than 5 pages from most any other author. :D

I'm surprised at how fast this story is moving. When the first snippet landed I thought most of this volume would be the revolution in North Harchong. A few snippets in and the capitol has fallen, the emperor likely dead, and serf insurgency on a roll.

Cant wait to get the whole thing. Pre-ordered and ready to read...



There are reasons for the speed, and the nature of the plot lets me do that in a way I couldn't really do in At the Sign of Triumph, for example, because of the numbers of armies and fleets in play in that book and the need to coordinate their activities for the reader. Fighting a world war (literally) in an animal-traction and sail-powered environment gives you a lot of moving bits and pieces which have to be orchestrated. I have a lot of things to orchestrate in this book, as well, but their natures are different and the events are occurring on a broader time scale, so I can write it a lot leaner. And contrary to what some people seem to assume, I spend quite a lot of time trying to figure out how to tell stories that way. In the original Safehold arc, for example, OAR could move bunches faster than the later books because the confrontation was just beginning to build up and gather steam and the sole military action (on Safehold) was the combined naval offensive against Charis. In the later books, there were bunches of campaigns underway simultaneously, not to mention the technology side of the war, which was just as important as any action in the field.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: TFT snippet #6
Post by Isilith   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:52 pm

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I may be wrong, but I don't see the rebellion in Harchong ( or, more specifically, Northern Harchong ) being resolved in this book.

Historically rebellions on such a scale will coalesce into an even more authoritarian state, and/or balkanize. Then spend 10, or more, years going through cycles involving both, with massive terror and loss of life on an inhuman scale. Before forming into one or more stable states.
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Re: TFT snippet #6
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:17 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Dilandu wrote:A question: how much Harchong is a "hydraulic" empire, i.e. how much its agriculture rely on large-scale irrigation projects (like in ancient China)?



runsforcelery wrote:Large scale agricultural irrigation is more a factor in South Harchong than in the North. It is not an enormous part of either portion of the empire, however.


Hm. So they arent essentially "hydraulic", and maintenance of national-scale bureaucracy and order is not essential for survival. The rebellion might be ugly; a good probability of total balkanization of North Harcong.



Correct. There's quite a bit of "required" maintenance on things like the high roads (keeping high northern high roads operable in an essentially muscle-powered culture is hard), but that's for the Church rather than the local aristocrats. (Which is not so say the local aristos don't have a finger in that pie, as well.) Unfortunately for the Church in Harchong, well . . . .


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: TFT snippet #6
Post by Henry Brown   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:32 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Hm. So they arent essentially "hydraulic", and maintenance of national-scale bureaucracy and order is not essential for survival. The rebellion might be ugly; a good probability of total balkanization of North Harcong.


I don't know about balkanization. I think if things start to get that bad, Rainbow Waters might return with the mighty host and intervene. He has stayed in exile with his army so far because he does not want to start a civil war. But if a civil war is already in progress, he might return with his army to stop it.
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Re: TFT snippet #6
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:52 pm

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Henry Brown wrote:
I don't know about balkanization. I think if things start to get that bad, Rainbow Waters might return with the mighty host and intervene. He has stayed in exile with his army so far because he does not want to start a civil war. But if a civil war is already in progress, he might return with his army to stop it.


What I meant, is how exactly the existence of established state and nation-scale bureaucracy is essential for general population survival. I.e. how much revolting serfs actually needed Harchong as a established system.

You see, one of the reason why China was so stable in its history was that it was "hydraulic" empire. The main agricultural crops on East is rice; and rice is VERY hygrophilous. To grow rice in large quantities, you needed complex irrigation system, capable of supplying large areas with large amount of water. And such system simply could not be supported by small-scale efforts. A village could not build a hundred-mile irrigation canal; a nation could.

So, in hydraulic type of empire, the existence of the state and its stability is actually the common interest of general population. Even if the general populations is serfs, they would not be interested in complete destruction of existing order; because the results would be fatal for them. No nation-scale order - no large-scale infrastructure projects - no water for irrigation - no food.

But since RFC stated, that North Harchong is NOT "hydraulic", and, basically, pheasants could survive by themselves, the situation changes. The existence of large nation became non-essential for rebels. And this increased the chances of the whole situation turning into warlordism and essential collapse of North Harchong.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: TFT snippet #6
Post by dobriennm   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:57 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Henry Brown wrote:
I don't know about balkanization. I think if things start to get that bad, Rainbow Waters might return with the mighty host and intervene. He has stayed in exile with his army so far because he does not want to start a civil war. But if a civil war is already in progress, he might return with his army to stop it.


What I meant, is how exactly the existence of established state and nation-scale bureaucracy is essential for general population survival. I.e. how much revolting serfs actually needed Harchong as a established system.

You see, one of the reason why China was so stable in its history was that it was "hydraulic" empire. The main agricultural crops on East is rice; and rice is VERY hygrophilous. To grow rice in large quantities, you needed complex irrigation system, capable of supplying large areas with large amount of water. And such system simply could not be supported by small-scale efforts. A village could not build a hundred-mile irrigation canal; a nation could.

So, in hydraulic type of empire, the existence of the state and its stability is actually the common interest of general population. Even if the general populations is serfs, they would not be interested in complete destruction of existing order; because the results would be fatal for them. No nation-scale order - no large-scale infrastructure projects - no water for irrigation - no food.

But since RFC stated, that North Harchong is NOT "hydraulic", and, basically, pheasants could survive by themselves, the situation changes. The existence of large nation became non-essential for rebels. And this increased the chances of the whole situation turning into warlordism and essential collapse of North Harchong.


Part of the reason people assumed a "hydraulic" empire is the Author's subtle misdirection by having the names , place names, and state structure resemble Imperial China.

In truth, the climate and topography of North Harchong would more closely resemble early Russia before it's expansion into the steppes (when it was confined more in the northern virgin woods). Combining a powerful Church cooperating closely with an aristocracy, the stereotypical "stoic peasantry/serfs" would be plausible.

Because Safehold developed differently than Earth, spreading out from enclaves which would tend to be situated in slightly easier climates (I am assuming that at my own risk of being wrong, obviously), North Harchong would still develop an aristocracy (for protection from dragons, etc as well as a peasantry to clear the unconsecrated forest (coordinated by the aristocracy and the Church).

North Harchong's later conquest of South Harchong (evidenced by the name change of New York to Yu-kwau) may have cemented an Imperial China type Empire which was later taken over by the bureaucrats under weaker Emperors.

Okay, those are my guesses at how Safehold and Harchong developed. I'm ready for everyone to pile on.
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