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The Dawn Star and Chihiro

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: The Dawn Star and Chihiro
Post by Jeslis   » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:35 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:Correction: Heirs of Empire incorporated the church Sean and Sandy and the kids had to deal with because, at that time, I didn't think i was ever going to get to write the Safehold books, which had been pitched to Jim baen at the same time as HH.



I was wondering about the similarities there between that book and safehold in general!

I'm very glad you were able to write safehold in full!
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Re: The Dawn Star and Chihiro
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:49 pm

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Isilith wrote:

And how would they notice it from 100's of LY away?


Sigh. With early XXI-century equipment.

Guys, you really need to refresh your astronomy. Space is basically the very contrast "cold" background. Any heat source could be easily detected on enormous distances with relatively cheap equipment. We could directly observe exoplanets literally THOUSAND of lightyears away (like CVSO 30 system, 1200 ly from Sun) - and no exoplanet emit as much energy as those supposed planetary-moving engine.

If Gbaba have at least our tech level (and there are "some indications" in books that they, indeed, have :) ) they could arrange for periodical scans from automated stations around their sphere of influence with literally miniscule resource requirements. So no, you could NOT hide planetary-moving engines even in space.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: The Dawn Star and Chihiro
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:35 am

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Dilandu wrote:
Isilith wrote:

And how would they notice it from 100's of LY away?


Sigh. With early XXI-century equipment.

Guys, you really need to refresh your astronomy. Space is basically the very contrast "cold" background. Any heat source could be easily detected on enormous distances with relatively cheap equipment. We could directly observe exoplanets literally THOUSAND of lightyears away (like CVSO 30 system, 1200 ly from Sun) - and no exoplanet emit as much energy as those supposed planetary-moving engine.

If Gbaba have at least our tech level (and there are "some indications" in books that they, indeed, have :) ) they could arrange for periodical scans from automated stations around their sphere of influence with literally miniscule resource requirements. So no, you could NOT hide planetary-moving engines even in space.


Sigh. Do they have time travel?

You've forgotten that the exoplanets we are currently 'observing' are in fact the state of play 1,200 years ago in time. If the colonists moved sufficiently far outside the Gbaba sphere of influence (which they did), any automated systems would only note an increase in heat several thousand years in the future.

You've also made an assumption that I was talking about moving a moon, with the consequent ginormous engines - probably because I joked about Iapetus - when I actually said 'build'. Build a moon.

More to the point, the entire premise of Safehold is that it IS possible to hide from the Gbaba if you go far enough.

Dilandu, if the Gbaba are as good at detection as you think, the entire premise of the series is destroyed. There can be no Safehold, because the Gbaba have already detected the planetary system, and will have noticed the energy produced by an entire fleet of Interstellar spaceships.

Except they won't, because one thing we do know about Fed tech is that they can 'stealth'. Likewise, they'll have noticed the energies used in Terraforming- except everyone thought they could hide that too.

So they can hide the energy event of spaceships, they can hide one-off energy events like the high tech gear for terraforming. Possibly they could even hide a one-off event like making a moon a bit bigger. What they can't do is hide the continued emissions of a high tech civilisation.
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Re: The Dawn Star and Chihiro
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:14 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:

More to the point, the entire premise of Safehold is that it IS possible to hide from the Gbaba if you go far enough.
.


No. The whole premise was, that even Gbaba could not inspect each and every planet around for hiding humans, so even if they would start to seek out hidden colonies, they would be forced to rely on artifical emission detection. Commodore Pei explained that in tbe first book: the idea was, that IF Gbaba start to search, they would go through Safehold general area in a few centuries and then either give up on some point, or went further until their scanning sphere would overstretch their ammount of scoutships.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: The Dawn Star and Chihiro
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:27 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:
Dilandu, if the Gbaba are as good at detection as you think, the entire premise of the series is destroyed. There can be no Safehold, because the Gbaba have already detected the planetary system, and will have noticed the energy produced by an entire fleet of Interstellar spaceships.

.



Not really. The ships went through the hyperspace, and we do not know how long they deccelerated in realspace. And they could use, for example, solar/magnet sails, to shred a lot of excess velocity without powering high-power drives.

But mainly, its nessesary assumption, because without it there would be no plot. If we go completely realistic here, then we quickly came to conclusion that operation Ark was inefficient, and the PICA-crewed ships would be much better solution (especially after RFC confirmed the existence of "manumited PICA's", thus rendering his own arguments for the Ark project essetnially meaningless :) ) Still, without their assumption there would be no plot of the series, so here we must just took it for granted.

So they can hide the energy event of spaceships, they can hide one-off energy events like the high tech gear for terraforming

Hiding heat sources on the planets IS simple. Planets, especially geologically and biologically active, tend to have sporadic high heat emissions, that could even have some pattern. Hiding something in space is MUCH more problematic, because sporadic heat-emitting events in vacuum are quite rare.

Possibly they could even hide a one-off event like making a moon a bit bigger



If they could hide SUCH ammount of energy, than hiding the whole civilization would be child play for a Federation. Just build some sort of Faraday's sphere around planetary magnitosphere, to ground EM emissions.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: The Dawn Star and Chihiro
Post by runsforcelery   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:45 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:
I keep reading about Safehold's single Moon and thinking 'Dahak'. :lol:

That said, single moons big enough to form noticeable, sailor-friendly tides must be relatively rare - our Moon is thought to be the result of an early collision between it and Earth. So did Shan Wei and the Terraforming team look for a planet with a single moon, or did they build a moon?

Given that Safehold is based on Heirs of Empire, I wouldn't put it past RFC's sense of humour to have hidden something on the moon - again. ;)





runsforcelery wrote:
Correction: Heirs of Empire incorporated the church Sean and Sandy and the kids had to deal with because, at that time, I didn't think i was ever going to get to write the Safehold books, which had been pitched to Jim baen at the same time as HH.


You were thinking of Safehold that far back? I didn't know that.

Incidentally, I love Heirs of Empire. Thank you for writing it. :)



Oh, yeah. Jim Baen asked me to give him some proposals for a planned series and i gave him what have become:

(1) The Honorverse
(2) Safehold
(3) The Multiverse (Hell's Gate) series
(4) The Gordian Protocol (not yet out but written and sold to Baen)

and 6 other series which I've never had time or opportunity to write. I loved the central focus of Safehold --- the moral responsibility to decide one's own beliefs; in this case in the face of an intentionally falsified, utterly authoritarian belief structure --- so much I went ahead and used it in Heirs in the specific format I'd envisioned for Safehold when it didn't look like Safehold would ever get written as its own series. And, BTW, the reason these books are with Tor is that Jim didn't have a slot to put them in but Tom Doherty did and Jim was gentleman enough to stand sponsor for them with Tor all those years ago.

It's a fortunate person who can say he works with quality human beings who also become friends and colleagues.

And I have been a very fortunate man.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: The Dawn Star and Chihiro
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:03 am

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Agree.

I'd like to see RFC's exact words on the status of Hamilcar.

I still remember the phrase "Nimue isn't dead". :lol:

Isilith wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:I'm almost certain that RFC has explicitly stated that Hamilcar was sent into the sun and will NOT be reappearing in the series.


I would like to see that, because I don't remember that at all. Not saying it isn't true, just saying I don't remember reading it.
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
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Re: The Dawn Star and Chihiro
Post by jlrice54   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:26 am

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My personal opinion is the Hamilcar was dumped in the the sun like the rest when Chihiro left (died) because:

1. If you are really deeply hiding from the Gbaba you don't even want a powered down hulk of a ship orbiting a plant you are hiding on. Too easily spotted on even a cursory survey of the planet. I guess the OBS in solar powered stealth mode wouldn't apply.

2. All orbits eventually decay unless there is a way to boost back to the proper orbital velocity and you wouldn't want something that sized making an uncontrolled reentry. The OBS doesn't apply because it is actively solar powered and I assume has propulsive ability to maintain it's orbit.

3. If your plan to stifle innovations on Safehold starts leaking you don't want someone with a larger telescope finding a large object of definitely artificial origin orbiting your plant. It would stimulate all sorts of questions you do not want asked. Upon further thought, spyglasses exist so they are approved under the Proscriptions. Scaling it up should fall under applying a the previously approved device clause. The OBS in stealth mode doesn't factor in because it is stealthed.

Just throwing stuff toward the wall to see what sticks.
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Re: The Dawn Star and Chihiro
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:16 pm

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jlrice54 wrote:
1. If you are really deeply hiding from the Gbaba you don't even want a powered down hulk of a ship orbiting a plant you are hiding on. Too easily spotted on even a cursory survey of the planet.


Exactly how? Powered-down ship on comet trajectory could be distinguished from asteroid only by visual observation. And if Gbaba spend their time inspecting all asteroids in all star systems, then they hardly would be a threat for Safeholdian (too busy counting asteroids, you know)

Moreover, the text mentioned that the initial plan of the expedition assumed that several powered-down ships would be put on comet trajectories in Safehold system to serve as examples for future generations - when Safeholdians would re-invent space travels, they would found those ships and use them as markers of "what tech level we should go past to overcame Gbaba".

2. All orbits eventually decay unless there is a way to boost back to the proper orbital velocity and you wouldn't want something that sized making an uncontrolled reentry. The OBS doesn't apply because it is actively solar powered and I assume has propulsive ability to maintain it's orbit.


There are Lagrange points, which are pretty stable. Or just comet orbits in outer system.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: The Dawn Star and Chihiro
Post by ryndieum   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:21 pm

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Dilandu wrote:There are Lagrange points, which are pretty stable. Or just comet orbits in outer system.


This is true. '

There is orbital decay and then there is orbital decay in any time frame remotely useful for this series. An orbit that will decay in a billion years isn't all that important and can be consider stable.

For example, the earth-moon orbit is not stable. But the decay is so far out there, the sun is going to red giant before it becomes too much of an issue.

On a smaller scale, Elon's car is going to orbit for "tens of millions of years" if nobody disturbs it, according to Cornell. That is long enough in this scale to be considered stable.
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