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Really?????? Mk2

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:29 pm

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(1) The rockets in question are spin stabilized in flight with machined nozzles. Yes, they are black powder and yes they will not be precision weapons. They will, however, be one hell of a lot more accurate than 19th century black powder rockets without spin stabilization.


...Seriously?

Image

The most banal Hale rocket. It's spin-stabilized, it's XIX century, and it's far too inaccurate.

(2) The rockets in question were fired en masse at a volume of watter which had been preranged and pretargeted. They were not aimed "at" the ships at all, and the vast, bast majority of them missed.


I never doubted that, you know. My criticism was about the possibility of obtaining anything besides cosmetic damage that way.
(3) If anyone was paying attention, the devastation was primarily the result of fires, set in the super structures. There were some deck penetrations, and the deck armor was thin.


If deck armor was THAT thin, that means that there are no deck armor at all. Seriously, how much armor do you need to stop a warhead that could realistically move XIX century rocket?

No one on the other side had the sort of heavy mortars which have been mentioned in this post, so most fire would be coming in on a fairly flat trajectory. (Had such heavy mortars been under construction, Merln would have known about it, and the deck armor --- which was much better on the Gwyllym Manthyr than on the ironclads which were never supposed to engage such heavy foritications and guns --- would have been considerably thicker.)


So they basically made a really stupid mistake?


The rockets became available to the Church only after the ships in question had been launched, and therefore represented a threat the designers had rated as low when they built the ships, Given the need for the thickest belt and casemate armor they could carry, they "skimped" on deck armor . . . just like a lot of RL late 19th-early 20th century naval architects,


...The average XIX century mid-size ironclad usually have 1-1,5 inch armored deck. Considering that Charisian armor was stated to be MUCH better than wrought iron or compound, I literally fail to see, how such armor could not stop the rocket warhead.
(4) The rickets in this casecame in on a steeper trajectory than cannon fire would have at that range, and it was specifically stated in the book that these were extraordinarily large rockets which had been specifically designed to carry heavy warheads designed to attack protected targets, which is one reason their range was so extraordinarily short and their trajectories were so steep. They were very short ranged weapons whose extremely nose-heavy design pulled them down at a very sharp angle.


I.e. the rockets that could NOT be build on XIX century level. At least, not reliably, which means that the whole "rocket volley" thing basically became an exercise in blowing up your launchers, because the probability of rocket's explosion during launch increased exponentially.

Not to mention that I seriously doubt that "extremely nose-heavy design" would do anything except making rocket flight completely unstable.

Sorry, RFC, but this just wouldn't work.
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:30 am

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Considering the Russo-Japanese war experience in penetrating the decks of Russian battleships in Port-Arthur by Japanese plunging fire, we could assume that we need a cast-iron shell of about 150-200 kg to penetrate 1,5-2 inxh deck of soft nickel steel ("Peresvet", for example, have a deck of usual steel due to troubles with nickel soft steel production).

Could the rocket carry such warhead? Yes, indeed. Problem is, it is not a primitive one-stick motor rocket. It would require something like that:

[img]http://www.lonesentry.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/japanese-ww2-rocket-launcher.jpg
[/img]

The rocket was 447-mm in diameter, weighed roughly 1,500 pounds, and consisted of an explosive head 41¼ inches long and a motor 27 inches long. The head was a 3/4 inch steel barrel, filled with picric acid, to which was welded a nose containing a fuse, picric acid booster cylinder and an Army gaine. For the propellant charge the motor used 60 kg of ballistite sticks, ignited by a charge of black powder located forward of the central stick. The motor base plate was equipped with six canted nozzles, a propellant-restraining grill, a threaded recess for the primer and a light protective base cover. By flashing through the perforation in the central ballistite stick, the primer ignited the black powder.



But it is not XIX century tech. It is mid-XX century tech. It is rather complex (albeit very simple) design with several powder sticks, working on ballistite.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Annachie   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:38 am

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Dil, do you know of any footage of these rockets being fired?

I remember Mythbusters talking about the Hale, for example, but I don't remember that they fired one off.
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Silverwall   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:40 am

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In addition, one of the problems of high angle fire is that the projectile actually arrives slower than a flat firing gun, Air drag is a real problem and terminal velocity is often 1/2 the performance of horizontally fired weapons. Thus you requiring a heavier projectile for equivalent impact and penitration.

Fuzing such weapons is also an issue as they need to be base fuzed to punch through armour and that is more complex than a traditional nose fuze. Nose fuzes are either destroyed before detonation making it a purely kinetic penitrator, or seriously compromises the AP ability of the round.
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:41 am

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Annachie wrote:Dil, do you know of any footage of these rockets being fired?

I remember Mythbusters talking about the Hale, for example, but I don't remember that they fired one off.


I'll try to find any.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:51 am

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Silverwall wrote:In addition, one of the problems of high angle fire is that the projectile actually arrives slower than a flat firing gun, Air drag is a real problem and terminal velocity is often 1/2 the performance of horizontally fired weapons. Thus you requiring a heavier projectile for equivalent impact and penitration.

Fuzing such weapons is also an issue as they need to be base fuzed to punch through armour and that is more complex than a traditional nose fuze. Nose fuzes are either destroyed before detonation making it a purely kinetic penitrator, or seriously compromises the AP ability of the round.


Exactly. So, basically, the Church rockets must be literally enormous to carry warhead heavy enough (the abovementioned Japanese rocket weighted almost a half-ton, and it worked on ballistite. The Church rocket of comparable performance would weight more than a ton). And size bring complexity, because you could not "just enlarge" the powder charge. You need more complex designs... and considering the Church quality of production, this means "absolutely unreliable" design.

Which basically means, that even the general direction of Church rocket's flight could be determined only very approximately. Considering the need for high-angle launches - the general result would be hardly better than throwing hand grenade vertically and hoping that the wind would carry her to the enemy. And, due to unreliability, no salvo fire would be actually possible. Individual launchers must be disperced - otherwise the probability of losing all rockets due to one engine detonation would be too high. And disperced launchers for pre-electric Church means literally zero hitting probability.

So: no, it wouldnt work.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:02 am

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Dilandu wrote:
Silverwall wrote:In addition, one of the problems of high angle fire is that the projectile actually arrives slower than a flat firing gun, Air drag is a real problem and terminal velocity is often 1/2 the performance of horizontally fired weapons. Thus you requiring a heavier projectile for equivalent impact and penitration.

Fuzing such weapons is also an issue as they need to be base fuzed to punch through armour and that is more complex than a traditional nose fuze. Nose fuzes are either destroyed before detonation making it a purely kinetic penitrator, or seriously compromises the AP ability of the round.


Exactly. So, basically, the Church rockets must be literally enormous to carry warhead heavy enough (the abovementioned Japanese rocket weighted almost a half-ton, and it worked on ballistite. The Church rocket of comparable performance would weight more than a ton). And size bring complexity, because you could not "just enlarge" the powder charge. You need more complex designs... and considering the Church quality of production, this means "absolutely unreliable" design.

Which basically means, that even the general direction of Church rocket's flight could be determined only very approximately. Considering the need for high-angle launches - the general result would be hardly better than throwing hand grenade vertically and hoping that the wind would carry her to the enemy. And, due to unreliability, no salvo fire would be actually possible. Individual launchers must be disperced - otherwise the probability of losing all rockets due to one engine detonation would be too high. And disperced launchers for pre-electric Church means literally zero hitting probability.

So: no, it wouldnt work.


A pity. Because it did. :lol:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:35 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
A pity. Because it did. :lol:



Historical evidence of similar action or exact calculations, please. ;)
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Donnachaidh   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:55 am

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For storytelling, author's opinion > reader's opinion.

Dilandu wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
A pity. Because it did. :lol:



Historical evidence of similar action or exact calculations, please. ;)
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:05 pm

Dilandu
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Donnachaidh wrote:For storytelling, author's opinion > reader's opinion.


Plausibility of given situations is up to readers to evaluate.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top

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