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Really?????? Mk2

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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:10 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
I might point out the references to Grimaldi. Now, Grimaldi never actually did anything particularly nasty to the Archangels (he was killed along with Shan-wei in Act I of the War Against the Fallen), but that didn't keep Bad Things from being attributed to him. And one of those Bad Things was what amounted to a bio-war attack on the Archangels who remained loyal to the Temple. But if you'll also notice, Rayno and Clyntahn specifically discuss the fact that nothing like that ever happened on the Temple grounds. Now, I ain't a'sayin' (at this point, at least) that Chihiro built in systems to protect against exactly that sort of attack, but, well . . . . :twisted:


A pity. :) I seriously hoped for at least one mad fanatic among Shan-Wei followers (seriously, after the destruction of Solar System and extermination of all other human race, it's pretty hard to believe that on the side of Shain-Wei concentrated only Generic Good Guys), who made some really mad things out of revenge.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:28 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
One of the huge differences between him and Duchairn was that Duchairn did spend time in the streets and in the homeless shelters. That probably did as much as his known efforts to aid the poor to make him the "human face of the Vicarate," and it was --- and was meant to be seen as --- a critical failure/blind spot on Clyntahn's part. And it was also a major factor in his ability to ignore/reject all the bad news coming from the front. He had no contact with any of the people from the sharp end who really knew what was happening, and he flat out rejected anything Maigwair and Duchairn said that had a "defeatist" cast because his world and environs were exactly what they had always been: the miraculous realm in which God's daily miracles validated his position every single five-day.


Actually, interesting observation; the Clyntahn/Duchairn dynamic seems to be an inversion of Hitler/Stalin dynamic. Hitler (especially early in the war) was pretty public person, often visited frontlines, talked to soldiers and workers - but he was absolutely unable to see any other point of view outside his, and ignored anything that did not correspond with his "reality".

Stalin, on the contrary, wasn't much of public person - he rarely appeared on public, did not like much attention at all, only a few times visited frontlines (one of the reason was, Stalin was afraid of flying, and used planes only if there were no other choice). But Stalin never ever assumed his point of view as absolute. He demanded that only the truth must be reported to him, even the most unpleasant - and everyone around him knew perfectly, that any attempt to distort facts would essentially be a death warrant for the perpetrator.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Kufat   » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:49 am

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runsforcelery wrote:Dilandu is completely correct about the best way to get rid of Clyntahn. Introducing, say, nanotech which would give him a completely "natural" heart attack --- especially given his self-indulgent life style, which violated several of Pasquale's Laws --- into the Temple would have been the best way to take him out.


I see how things work around here...the JG has the idea, the RADM says no, and the First Space Lord gives the RADM credit! :lol:

More seriously, Dilandu, I agree that a virus would indeed be better but we didn't have textev that the Cave could produce one. We do know that the cave can produce medical nanotech, and that's why I suggested what I did.
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by runsforcelery   » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:44 am

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Dilandu wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
I might point out the references to Grimaldi. Now, Grimaldi never actually did anything particularly nasty to the Archangels (he was killed along with Shan-wei in Act I of the War Against the Fallen), but that didn't keep Bad Things from being attributed to him. And one of those Bad Things was what amounted to a bio-war attack on the Archangels who remained loyal to the Temple. But if you'll also notice, Rayno and Clyntahn specifically discuss the fact that nothing like that ever happened on the Temple grounds. Now, I ain't a'sayin' (at this point, at least) that Chihiro built in systems to protect against exactly that sort of attack, but, well . . . . :twisted:





A pity. :) I seriously hoped for at least one mad fanatic among Shan-Wei followers (seriously, after the destruction of Solar System and extermination of all other human race, it's pretty hard to believe that on the side of Shain-Wei concentrated only Generic Good Guys), who made some really mad things out of revenge.



Actually, they did include "at least one mad fanatic" . . . sorta, Grimaldi didn't launch any bio attacks on the "Archangels," but please note that I specifically said someone did. And Chihro and Co. blamed Grimaldi (and his minions) for it when it happened, of course. I may or may not ever get around to telling that particular story at some time.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:39 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
Annachie wrote:I agree, up until the point that the church started making rifles.

At that point Merlin should have been able to just shoot him (possibly with an OWL made rifle) and disapeer while leaving a (previously fired) church made rifle behind.

Not even Merlin, Nynian had all the organisation to do it too.


Um. You did see my "never stepped outside the distance limit around the Temple itself that Merlin had established as his 'no-high-tech-wake-up-alarms' zone"? He's allowed a pretty generous zone, for several reasons, and it would take a pretty miraculous rifle shot (even for him) to take Clyntahn down at 5 km or so.



I did think at some points on the way that a couple of scout/snipers willing to volunteer for a one-way mission disguised as pilgrims was indicated. But we have never seen the actual layout of the square where public Punishments take place nor its surroundings, so perhaps that really wasn't feasible either.
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by evilauthor   » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:29 am

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Randomiser wrote:
I did think at some points on the way that a couple of scout/snipers willing to volunteer for a one-way mission disguised as pilgrims was indicated. But we have never seen the actual layout of the square where public Punishments take place nor its surroundings, so perhaps that really wasn't feasible either.


IIRC, there were maps published that showed you have to cross a fairly wide river (presumably on a bridge) to go from the City of Zion proper to the Temple grounds.

And in any case, if you're going to use snipers, why use Charisians when you can use some Helmcleaver agents with bootleg St. Khylman rifles?
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Vinea   » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:37 am

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Dilandu wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
A pity. Because it did. :lol:


Historical evidence of similar action or exact calculations, please. ;)


Hate to reopen this discussion but:

The Brits built 300 pr Congreve Rockets. Therefore 300 pr. Hale rockets are plausible if somewhat impractical. The 42 pr was considered the largest practical size and the 100 and 300 pr versions too unwieldy but it was still possible to build them.

So an ultra heavy wide area bombardment system in the 100-200lb range with a relatively high launch angle is therefore historically possible even if they were never fielded.

138.5 lb Japanese Type 99 Ordinary bomb had a 1" deck penetration. I don't think this estimate is based on a 10,000 ft drop but from a 1600 ft dive bomber attack.

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/B/o/Bombs.htm

There's no real reason to build the Gwylym Manthyr with anything more than perfunctory deck armor except maybe over the magazines given the expected opposition and how quickly its likely going to be obsolete.

The Kasuga-class armored cruiser had 20-40mm worth of deck armor. Assuming somewhere in the 125-200lb category for the rockets and you'll see mostly surface detonations and only a few penetrations.

Assuming few deck penetrations (which is what rfc said happened) you're still likely going to end up with a mission kill. Getting your superstructure blown up is something to be avoided even if you are mostly sure you aren't going to get a penetration over the magazines and go boom. There's good reason for Dunkyn to be concerned.
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:37 am

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Vinea wrote:
The Brits built 300 pr Congreve Rockets. Therefore 300 pr. Hale rockets are plausible if somewhat impractical. The 42 pr was considered the largest practical size and the 100 and 300 pr versions too unwieldy but it was still possible to build them.


With all respect, but 300 pdr is a total weight of the rocket. Not just the warhead. The weight of warhead is MUCH smaller.


Vinea wrote:So an ultra heavy wide area bombardment system in the 100-200lb range with a relatively high launch angle is therefore historically possible even if they were never fielded.


No they aren't. The mass that would reach the target would be barely 1/3 of initial, and only part of said mass would be a warhead.


Vinea wrote:138.5 lb Japanese Type 99 Ordinary bomb had a 1" deck penetration. I don't think this estimate is based on a 10,000 ft drop but from a 1600 ft dive bomber attack.


The angle of bomb's fall is much close to vertical than for Hale's rocket.


Vinea wrote:There's no real reason to build the Gwylym Manthyr with anything more than perfunctory deck armor except maybe over the magazines given the expected opposition and how quickly its likely going to be obsolete.


Considering that by the time of her commissioning Church already have howitzers (angle guns), such design mistake seems to be... unlikely.

Assuming few deck penetrations (which is what rfc said happened) you're still likely going to end up with a mission kill. Getting your superstructure blown up is something to be avoided even if you are mostly sure you aren't going to get a penetration over the magazines and go boom. There's good reason for Dunkyn to be concerned.


Currently, I couldn't see how even a single deck penetration might be achieved this way.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:14 am

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evilauthor wrote:
And in any case, if you're going to use snipers, why use Charisians when you can use some Helmcleaver agents with bootleg St. Khylman rifles?


I can't remember now at which point of the story I was thinking of it. A lot happened before Cayleb etc actually had command access to Helmcleaver. Plus I knew scout/snipers could hit what they were aiming at from waaay back, I didn't know very much about the military abilities of Helmcleaver agents.
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Re: Really?????? Mk2
Post by Vinea   » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:19 am

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Dilandu wrote:
With all respect, but 300 pdr is a total weight of the rocket. Not just the warhead. The weight of warhead is MUCH smaller.

...

No they aren't. The mass that would reach the target would be barely 1/3 of initial, and only part of said mass would be a warhead.



This is always the case.

“The range of the eight-inch, seven-inch and six-inch rockets are from 2,000 to 2,500 yards, and the quantities of combustible matter, or bursting powder, from 25 pounds and upwards to 50 pounds. The 42-and 32-pounders are those which have hitherto been principally used in bombardment. These convey from 10 to seven pounds of combustible matter each and have a range of upwards of 3,000 yards.

“The 42-and 32-pounder rockets may also be used as explosion rockets and the 32-pounder armed with shot or shells; thus a 32-pounder will range at least 1,000 yards, laid on the ground and armed with a 5 1/2-inch howitzer shell, or an 18-or even a 24-pounder solid shot.

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily ... red-glare/

So the payload for a 32 pounder Congreve Rocket wasn’t terrible. The payload to weight ratio of the 300 pounder will be worse but assuming it could handle a 8” payload it would have been roughly equivalent to a 68 pounder.

The Japanese 138lb bomb has a warhead of 66 lbs.

Currently, I couldn't see how even a single deck penetration might be achieved this way.


No penetrations are required for a mission kill if you set the ship on fire and blow up the unarmored portions of the deck. Most shallow penetrations aren’t going to be critical anyway unless it’s a magazine or engine. Mostly you want to put non-critical stuff like the ships laundry and other stuff to absorb damage.

With respect to angle guns, it depends on what the church was fielding. A 24 pounder howitzer isn’t going to penetrate 1” plate any more than a 32 pounder Congreve. If you don’t think a 300 lb Congreve with an 8” payload will penetrate then neither will an 8” mortar.

When you design a warship it’s always a balancing act to maximize the immunity zone against the most likely threats, carry enough guns that are big enough and still have enough speed and range. I might not have bothered with 1” worth of deck armor and armored lighter overall for higher speed given the steam engines are likely not very efficient yet. If there was no need to worry about QF guns I might have opted for a armor lay down like a protected cruiser vs late 19th century pre-dread armor design.

If my main batteries out range the most common angle guns fielded by the church army I’m not going to spend a lot of effort defending against them when the coastal batteries and ship batteries aren’t generally the higher angle mortars and howitzers.

Bombardment rockets? It’s such a wierd scenario I wouldn’t have considered them either. I’d have gone with less armor overall than historical for more tactical speed or strategic range since by the time I’m facing armored steam ships built by the church I’m going to have dreadnoughts style ships coming off my slips. Time doesn’t favor the Church and the tech disparity will only grow even without electricity or radio.

I’m more likely to lose a battle because I’m late because I needed to stop for coal (or plain couldn’t get there) or let a fleet get away because I’m a knot too slow than end up facing a bunch of heavy bombardment rockets that the Church didn’t have when I was designing the ship.

Even if that turns out to be wrong it iseasily understandable why a ship designer might scrimp on deck armor and not some criminally stupid decision. Hell, I’d have spent more effort on mine/torpedo defense than worry about plunging fire the Church doesn’t have or likely good enough rangefinders and ROF to make it effective even if it did.
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