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TFT snippet #5

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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:13 pm

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Charybdis wrote:Well, I'm just running through my mind some of the more unpleasant underclass revolts and thinking of the comparisons. The Middle Europe Peasant's Revolt of the early 1500s, the Spartacus Slave Revolt of the 70s BCE, and the French Revolution offer clues about the horror that these tinderboxes are and the fire that can result from them.


Considering that Charis is way in the late XIX century, they may also star to worry about worker's revolts & socialism soon :) Which is, actually, inevitable, because so-called "middle class" was born as an attempt of capitalistic countries to counter the more radical solutions to the social inequality problems. You could not get to modern, rational capitalism without firstly kicking the overwhelming greed out of capitalists with the good ol' hammer & sickle.
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:34 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Charybdis wrote:Well, I'm just running through my mind some of the more unpleasant underclass revolts and thinking of the comparisons. The Middle Europe Peasant's Revolt of the early 1500s, the Spartacus Slave Revolt of the 70s BCE, and the French Revolution offer clues about the horror that these tinderboxes are and the fire that can result from them.


Considering that Charis is way in the late XIX century, they may also star to worry about worker's revolts & socialism soon :) Which is, actually, inevitable, because so-called "middle class" was born as an attempt of capitalistic countries to counter the more radical solutions to the social inequality problems. You could not get to modern, rational capitalism without firstly kicking the overwhelming greed out of capitalists with the good ol' hammer & sickle.

Capital is simply stored wealth. Capitalism is simply the protection and use of privately owned stored wealth. The only difference between concentrated privately owned wealth (oligarchs) and concentrated publically owned wealth (Socialists) are who owns the stored wealth.

The important element in the formation of the middle class is a free market and laws supporting voluntary exchange. When either government or the uber rich can force people to engage in economic activity, there isn't voluntary exchange and whoever owns the wealth(government or private) will be the only ones to prosper. Socialism is far less effecient than a free market that enshrines voluntary exchange. So labor unrest will be best addressed by encouraging free markets and voluntary exchange.

Those nations that already have oligarchs and aristocrats owning the vast majority of all wealth will be prime targets for socialism. Nations that encourage free markets and voluntary exchange will offer very barren fields for socialist seeds. The ones in the middle had better free up their markets or the scourge of socialism may well take root.
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:06 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Capital is simply stored wealth. Capitalism is simply the protection and use of privately owned stored wealth. The only difference between concentrated privately owned wealth (oligarchs) and concentrated publically owned wealth (Socialists) are who owns the stored wealth.

The important element in the formation of the middle class is a free market and laws supporting voluntary exchange. When either government or the uber rich can force people to engage in economic activity, there isn't voluntary exchange and whoever owns the wealth(government or private) will be the only ones to prosper. Socialism is far less effecient than a free market that enshrines voluntary exchange. So labor unrest will be best addressed by encouraging free markets and voluntary exchange.


Nah. The question is much more fundamental. The question is, basically, "what part of person's labor could be taken away and for what reason?"

The capitalism in pure, basic form, basically assumed that "any part of person's labor could be taken away if it works." That's the reason of slavery, after all; as long as it worked fine to left peoples with bare minimum, it was perfectly fine to do that. And main problem of capitalism (even now) that it never could provide sufficient explanation why exactly the workers need a capitalist.

The opposite is simple; capitalist without workers means nothing. He could not exist without them. But why exactly workers need capitalist? To "organize everything right?" But by early XX century, most capitalists did not participate themselves in everyday works of their enterprises, relying the direct control over factories and establishments to the hired directors. Why exactly workers could not hire directors themselves, to do the work?

Or the capitalist have his rights because he put his efforts into the creation of said enterprises? But again, workers who build his factory, and engineers who designed it clearly put a lot more efforts into it then capitalist himself. And money also aren't clear answer, because the money were quite often borrowed from banks to create some factory; so the whole "sacred property right" go from just the fact that capitalist persuaded manager to lend him money? And even if we agree that capitalist who build factory have some rights to took away part of his workers labor as a compensation for his (very non-defined) efforts, why should the same right belong to someone who inherited said factory or brought it - i.e. without putting any real efforts in its creation?

That was the question that quite worried early XX-century workers. Up until World War I they were just worried, but World War I make them angry. Because, essentially, the enormous efforts, whole nation wealth and horrific amount of lives were put into useless war that was supposed to benefit only elite, and essentially did not benefit even them. After which it became obvious that unrestricted capitalism is prone to murdering idiocy, and could waste enormous resources for essentially nothing. And that made capitalists worried, because Russian Revolution clearly demonstrated: it is POSSIBLE to get rid of capitalists, and the world would NOT end. Yes, the socialism might not be as effective, but it worked fine.

Which clearly demonstrated, that there ARE lower limit of "how much of person's work could be taken away". Go below that limit, and it would became simpler for workers to took over & shot capitalists. Of course, capitalists tried to circumvent that, but the result was the birth of fascism, and after World War II, even the most staunch anti-communists were forced to admit that there ARE things much, MUCH worse than communists. So "there are limits to exploitation and those limits are NOT determined only by the capitalists" became the Capitalism Rule No.1 For Survival.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by runsforcelery   » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:29 pm

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Dauntless wrote:
Randomiser wrote:Northern oil trees - Oh dear. Upwards of 15,000 men caught in this narrow roadbed with an impenetrable forest fire raging around them. Ouch! One feels sympathy for the poor soldiers.

Winter Glory is just the embodiment of "fat and happy".

As a simple security measure, the ammunition for all those rifles will have been sent with a different convoy, won't it? :twisted:


if it was AoG or Mighty host? yes

with these fools, you can guarantee that there was at least a respectable, if not sizeable amount of ammo.



Just as matter of curiosity, if the rifles are being sent to mate up with a field force which has no rifles yet (and thus no ammo for the nonexistent rifles it doesn't have) why wouldn't a peacetime convoy with a powerful escort be used to send the needed ammo to the same force at the same time? Be kinda pointless to issue them all those nice, short, clumsy spears without any ammunition to shoot out of the spear shaft, wouldn't it?


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:38 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Nah. The question is much more fundamental. The question is, basically, "what part of person's labor could be taken away and for what reason?"

The capitalism in pure, basic form, basically assumed that "any part of person's labor could be taken away if it works." That's the reason of slavery, after all; as long as it worked fine to left peoples with bare minimum, it was perfectly fine to do that. And main problem of capitalism (even now) that it never could provide sufficient explanation why exactly the workers need a capitalist.

The opposite is simple; capitalist without workers means nothing. He could not exist without them. But why exactly workers need capitalist? To "organize everything right?" But by early XX century, most capitalists did not participate themselves in everyday works of their enterprises, relying the direct control over factories and establishments to the hired directors. Why exactly workers could not hire directors themselves, to do the work?

Or the capitalist have his rights because he put his efforts into the creation of said enterprises? But again, workers who build his factory, and engineers who designed it clearly put a lot more efforts into it then capitalist himself. And money also aren't clear answer, because the money were quite often borrowed from banks to create some factory; so the whole "sacred property right" go from just the fact that capitalist persuaded manager to lend him money? And even if we agree that capitalist who build factory have some rights to took away part of his workers labor as a compensation for his (very non-defined) efforts, why should the same right belong to someone who inherited said factory or brought it - i.e. without putting any real efforts in its creation?

That was the question that quite worried early XX-century workers. Up until World War I they were just worried, but World War I make them angry. Because, essentially, the enormous efforts, whole nation wealth and horrific amount of lives were put into useless war that was supposed to benefit only elite, and essentially did not benefit even them. After which it became obvious that unrestricted capitalism is prone to murdering idiocy, and could waste enormous resources for essentially nothing. And that made capitalists worried, because Russian Revolution clearly demonstrated: it is POSSIBLE to get rid of capitalists, and the world would NOT end. Yes, the socialism might not be as effective, but it worked fine.

Which clearly demonstrated, that there ARE lower limit of "how much of person's work could be taken away". Go below that limit, and it would became simpler for workers to took over & shot capitalists. Of course, capitalists tried to circumvent that, but the result was the birth of fascism, and after World War II, even the most staunch anti-communists were forced to admit that there ARE things much, MUCH worse than communists. So "there are limits to exploitation and those limits are NOT determined only by the capitalists" became the Capitalism Rule No.1 For Survival.

No. Labor is not the sine qua non of economic activity. Labor, capital and resources are the three legged stool of economic activity. Each is necessary.
Labor is the effort each human being brings into current economic activity.
Capital is stored wealth. This can be gained by exchanging labor and keeping what is received and isn't used. eg. the ox a man gets for his labor.
Resources are base materials used to make finished goods.

Your analysis ignores 2 of the three legs of the economic stool. Capital is defined as stored wealth. Capitalism is then the legal structure that secures ownership and ability to use that stored wealth. Toss in securing the ownership of resources and we have a good definition of Capitalism.

In any case Capitalism is not the real issue in this context, free markets and voluntary exchange is more central to the discussion. Involuntary servitude is the opposite of voluntary exchange and free markets. Those workers are not free to exchange their labor as they see fit. That can happen in a largely capitalist legal framework or socialist framework.

Tell me did the USSR provide freedom to work where ever one wants? Did the USSR provide a great deal of choice in where people could work? Offer choices in how to spend their stored welath or how to use that wealth to make a living? That lack of choice approximates the choices a serf had under the Czars.

So, better to keep the dicussion to market activity and voluntary exchange.
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Isilith   » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:59 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:

Just as matter of curiosity, if the rifles are being sent to mate up with a field force which has no rifles yet (and thus no ammo for the nonexistent rifles it doesn't have) why wouldn't a peacetime convoy with a powerful escort be used to send the needed ammo to the same force at the same time? Be kinda pointless to issue them all those nice, short, clumsy spears without any ammunition to shoot out of the spear shaft, wouldn't it?


Well, we ARE talking about the aristocrats from northern Harchong. ;)
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by SYED   » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:02 pm

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Say they loose those few northern manufactures after their stores have been taken by the rebellion, they will be facing modern armed force with weapons best suited for dealing with serfs and slaves. It is possible that the empire could eventually stop them, but only after a lot of damage is done.
Due to corruption, their armed forces have been limited, so enough military massacres and we could see it going badly.
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Joat42   » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:13 pm

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SYED wrote:Say they loose those few northern manufactures after their stores have been taken by the rebellion, they will be facing modern armed force with weapons best suited for dealing with serfs and slaves. It is possible that the empire could eventually stop them, but only after a lot of damage is done.
Due to corruption, their armed forces have been limited, so enough military massacres and we could see it going badly.

And imagine how the armed forces will feel when the rebels has better weapons. I don't think it'll engender strong feelings of loyalty.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:34 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Capital is simply stored wealth. Capitalism is simply the protection and use of privately owned stored wealth. The only difference between concentrated privately owned wealth (oligarchs) and concentrated publically owned wealth (Socialists) are who owns the stored wealth.


Disagree. Under capitalism the wealth is mostly controlled by those who have demonstrated the ability to create wealth. Under socialism it's controlled for the good of the people, not by those skilled in it's creation. The result is that over time you end up with more wealth under capitalism than socialism.

The important element in the formation of the middle class is a free market and laws supporting voluntary exchange. When either government or the uber rich can force people to engage in economic activity, there isn't voluntary exchange and whoever owns the wealth(government or private) will be the only ones to prosper. Socialism is far less effecient than a free market that enshrines voluntary exchange. So labor unrest will be best addressed by encouraging free markets and voluntary exchange.


I don't think Charis will have a big problem--they have Merlin to advise them on how you need to handle it to avoid revolts.
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by phillies   » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:54 pm

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I will be just as happy if the incineration is skipped over, so perhaps there were a couple of survivors who ran very, very fast and lived to tell the tale. Alternatively, the nobles in the capitol are discussing the unfortunate fact that the large army column just got wiped out in a horrifying way.
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