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TFT snippet #5

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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:13 am

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Just imagine how "well" it would work, if some US president would declare: "you know, we, Americans, consume so much of world wealth and resources, while dozens of millions of peoples in Africa are starving. Thats not right. So from now on, we would buy African-produced goods and resources on such prices, that the African workers could be paid as well as American's. And we would NOT seek for the alternate sources or increase domestic production, because our goals is to fight inequality in the world. Of course you, my fellow Americans, would loss a part of your wealth - but you still be wealthier than majority of the world, so who cares? - but millions of Africans would not starve anymore"

How long such president would stay in office - or alive? Eh, PeterZ? ;)
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:13 am

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Dilandu wrote:
PeterZ wrote:How is voluntary association and voluntary exchange an exercise in greed? How is relying on privately owned wealth to create more goods and services for the benefit of all an exercise in I got mine F you?


Because capitalism are not aimed toward benefit of all. Its aimed for getting maximum profit from "voluntary exchange". And by definition, capitalism are both ineffective and inequal. Ineffective - because when a lot of private owners compete for customers interest in similar kind of goods, it automatically lead to overproduction and waste of resources. And overproduction, if could not be vented externally, led to eventual crisis.

Inequal - because capitalism could not exist in a situation of equality. It required cheap resources and open markets, otherwise the profit would be lost. The current situation - when the minority of the "first world" consumed the majority of resources while leaving the majority of planet population in dire need - is a clear demonstration, how "well" capitalism worked in global therms.

Dilandu, if socialism is so effective why has it failed everywhere it has been tried? Voluntary exchange IS VOLUNTARY. That means both sides believe they have gained from the exchange or te exchange doesn't happen. Compelling an activity is where there is inequality.

As for maximum profit, free markets and the competition inherent in that market limits just how much profit can be had from a given exchange. Total profits driven from high volume means many people freely engage in a given exchange. Why would many people voluntarily exchange in a purely one sided exchange? They don't.

The majority of the population has grown far less needs in the last century because of capitalism. That improvement got rapidly better once the USSR fell and China started engaging in market centric policies. I wonder why that is?
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:28 am

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Asian producers in Vietnam and Thailand are selling goods to the US. Vietnam got its house in order and are actually investing in their production. I already mentioned China's increasingly market driven economy.

African countries don't produce finished goods. They sell their natural resources. If the nations in Africa can get past their oligarchs/leaders maybe they'll get more wealthy. Tribal politics separate their citizens and demagogues gleen available capital through corruption. The US would buy African goods, if they produced any in quantity. They would have to compete with the Asians and Europeans though. The US doesn't have demand low prices, competition does that already.
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Annachie   » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:35 am

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Actually, that dovetails nicely into one of the political posts sbout Trump and deals.

Art of the deal, requires winners and losers, and ultimately the winners become losers.

Real world trade negotiations, enlightened self interest.

To then put that into a Safehold setting. Enlightened self intetest is how Edwyrd Howsmyn set up his factories and work force.

Harchong wont go that way though, at least without outside "assistance"

Actually, it's how the SeM set up some of their investment oppertunities in the Talbot cluster in Honorverse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:35 am

Dilandu
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PeterZ wrote:
Dilandu, if socialism is so effective why has it failed everywhere it has been tried? Voluntary exchange IS VOLUNTARY. That means both sides believe they have gained from the exchange or te exchange doesn't happen. Compelling an activity is where there is inequality.

As for maximum profit, free markets and the competition inherent in that market limits just how much profit can be had from a given exchange. Total profits driven from high volume means many people freely engage in a given exchange. Why would many people voluntarily exchange in a purely one sided exchange? They don't.


They did. Because they have exactly zero other choice, except starving.

The majority of the population has grown far less needs in the last century because of capitalism. That improvement got rapidly better once the USSR fell and China started engaging in market centric policies. I wonder why that is?


Because it isn't. The capital concentration increased rapidly also, which basically means that while nations became "richer", the 99% of their individuals became much poorer. Thats the problem since USSR fell, yeah. Problem that is generally forgotten.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 am

Dilandu
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Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Russia

PeterZ wrote:Asian producers in Vietnam and Thailand are selling goods to the US. Vietnam got its house in order and are actually investing in their production. I already mentioned China's increasingly market driven economy.

African countries don't produce finished goods. They sell their natural resources. If the nations in Africa can get past their oligarchs/leaders maybe they'll get more wealthy. Tribal politics separate their citizens and demagogues gleen available capital through corruption. The US would buy African goods, if they produced any in quantity. They would have to compete with the Asians and Europeans though. The US doesn't have demand low prices, competition does that already.


Sigh. So the "competition" is the indulgence for suffering of peoples, because hey, they have equival rights to compete for the benefits of their masters, yes?

Sorry, no. Survival of the fittest might be natural order of things, but it isn't moral in any way.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by ywing14   » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:19 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
saber964 wrote:I don't see Charis have much of a problem with labor strikes because people like Howsmahn and others are getting ahead of the problems that prompted the labor unrest of the 1870's to the 1930's. Those strikes were mostly about wages, working conditions and safety. FYI it wasn't the unions that started pushing for the 40 hour week, weekends off and a living wage. It was Henry Ford who started it. It was not for altruistic reasons either. It was so his workers could be able to afford to buy his cars and have the time to do something with those same cars.



Alas, Charis is not going to be the only Safeholdian realm to industrialize, is it? :twisted:

Just saying.

[Walks away, hands in pockets, whistling tunelessly. ]


I mean are we talking about Charis or the Charisan Empire. Caleb and Sharleyan have said from the beginning wealth and industrialization will not be concentrated in Charis. So I can see Chisholm, Tarot, Emerald, Corisande, and Zebedian?... As far as Mainland realms go Siddarmark is obvious, Dohlar, Temple Lands (now that Ducairn in charge, South Harchong.
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:24 am

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Dilandu wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Asian producers in Vietnam and Thailand are selling goods to the US. Vietnam got its house in order and are actually investing in their production. I already mentioned China's increasingly market driven economy.

African countries don't produce finished goods. They sell their natural resources. If the nations in Africa can get past their oligarchs/leaders maybe they'll get more wealthy. Tribal politics separate their citizens and demagogues gleen available capital through corruption. The US would buy African goods, if they produced any in quantity. They would have to compete with the Asians and Europeans though. The US doesn't have demand low prices, competition does that already.


Sigh. So the "competition" is the indulgence for suffering of peoples, because hey, they have equival rights to compete for the benefits of their masters, yes?

Sorry, no. Survival of the fittest might be natural order of things, but it isn't moral in any way.

Yet no one is becoming extinct and more people are elevated out of poverty because of free markets, voluntary exchange and the indulgence of competition. You claims that this is immoral are countered by facts.
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Annachie   » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:37 am

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PeterZ wrote:Yet no one is becoming extinct and more people are elevated out of poverty because of free markets, voluntary exchange and the indulgence of competition. You claims that this is immoral are countered by facts.


Actually, poverty levels in the USA have been fairly consistant since the early 1970's, and the number below 50% of the poverty line is actually going up.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: TFT snippet #5
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:31 am

Dilandu
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PeterZ wrote:Yet no one is becoming extinct and more people are elevated out of poverty because of free markets, voluntary exchange and the indulgence of competition.


Yeah? About a million Tutsi in Rwanda clearly would not agree with you on the matter of "not becoming extinct". As well as literally thousands examples out of colonial era, where whole nations were devastated for the sake of "free market".

PeterZ wrote:You claims that this is immoral are countered by facts.


Exactly what facts? The facts that 1% of world population own 50,1% of world's total wealth?

Just ten years ago it was just 42,5%.

I say it's pretty much immoral, especially considering the fact that this tendency did not seems to stop.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top

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