Slavery and Serfdom, why, how?

Vinea wrote:I was always curious why the Writ didn't try to make warfare stylized into combat between individual warriors/champions as opposed to battles between militaries...I'm of the opinion that wars and military rivalries have been one of the drivers of technology...

Wouldn't they want to try to nip that one in the bud?

That would last about as long as it takes for people to realize that they can pretty much "cheat" without consequence (or at least without divine retribution) by simply bringing more buddies to a fight... which would be about as long as until the next school yard spat.

IOW, warfare done only by champions would be completely unenforceable.

The War of the Fallen would just be the final nail in the coffin.

evilauthor wrote:

Vinea wrote:I was always curious why the Writ didn't try to make warfare stylized into combat between individual warriors/champions as opposed to battles between militaries...I'm of the opinion that wars and military rivalries have been one of the drivers of technology...

Wouldn't they want to try to nip that one in the bud?

That would last about as long as it takes for people to realize that they can pretty much "cheat" without consequence (or at least without divine retribution) by simply bringing more buddies to a fight... which would be about as long as until the next school yard spat.

IOW, warfare done only by champions would be completely unenforceable.

The War of the Fallen would just be the final nail in the coffin.

The main reason was that no one thought too much about it, and the reason they didn't was that Langhorne and Bedard, like good Marxists, expected "the state to wither away" once it was no longer needed. That is, once all other technology had been discarded, they expected the final enclave to discard it's tech and disappear into the eternally non-technic society they had created. And, that being the case, no one would be around to enforce that decree with divine wrath if it was was violated, which would make it a virtually certain failure point for the structure they were building.

Obviously, there were some changes in their game plan after Armageddon Reef, and then the War Against the Fallen came along with even angels and archangels fighting in groups and as an organized force, not individual champions. What else might have been going on under the surface and behind the scene deponent saith not.

evilauthor wrote:

Vinea wrote:I was always curious why the Writ didn't try to make warfare stylized into combat between individual warriors/champions as opposed to battles between militaries...I'm of the opinion that wars and military rivalries have been one of the drivers of technology...

Wouldn't they want to try to nip that one in the bud?

That would last about as long as it takes for people to realize that they can pretty much "cheat" without consequence (or at least without divine retribution) by simply bringing more buddies to a fight... which would be about as long as until the next school yard spat.

IOW, warfare done only by champions would be completely unenforceable.

The War of the Fallen would just be the final nail in the coffin.

I was think more along the lines of Church run matches than letting the nobles do it. Either individual combat or other gladiatorial style contests. Winner gets the disputed territory or whatever. Damage to the loser is limited and the God is the arbiter.

Military ambition is channeled into forming the best hunger game teams as opposed to more innovative ways to kill the enemy.

You might even avoid allowing gunpowder as an allowed technology.

Vinea wrote:

Vinea wrote:I was always curious why the Writ didn't try to make warfare stylized into combat between individual warriors/champions as opposed to battles between militaries...I'm of the opinion that wars and military rivalries have been one of the drivers of technology...

Wouldn't they want to try to nip that one in the bud?

evilauthor wrote:That would last about as long as it takes for people to realize that they can pretty much "cheat" without consequence (or at least without divine retribution) by simply bringing more buddies to a fight... which would be about as long as until the next school yard spat.

IOW, warfare done only by champions would be completely unenforceable.

The War of the Fallen would just be the final nail in the coffin.

I was think more along the lines of Church run matches than letting the nobles do it. Either individual combat or other gladiatorial style contests. Winner gets the disputed territory or whatever. Damage to the loser is limited and the God is the arbiter.

Military ambition is channeled into forming the best hunger game teams as opposed to more innovative ways to kill the enemy.

You might even avoid allowing gunpowder as an allowed technology.

I see exactly what you're thinking. But evilauthor is absolutely right. Unless the rakurai were waiting to take out anyone who broke the rules, people would sooner or later start extrapolating from gang fights and mobs that get out of hand to larger issues and wonder why God wasn't smiting all those guys who were bashing each other over the head in the streets. And when that happened, so long Proscriptions.

There is a very sound reason for the old adage: "Never give an order you know won't be obeyed."

Moral authority is like virginity. You only get to lose it once.

runsforcelery wrote:
The main reason was that no one thought too much about it, and the reason they didn't was that Langhorne and Bedard, like good Marxists, expected "the state to wither away" once it was no longer needed. That is, once all other technology had been discarded, they expected the final enclave to discard it's tech and disappear into the eternally non-technic society they had created. And, that being the case, no one would be around to enforce that decree with divine wrath if it was was violated, which would make it a virtually certain failure point for the structure they were building.

Obviously, there were some changes in their game plan after Armageddon Reef, and then the War Against the Fallen came along with even angels and archangels fighting in groups and as an organized force, not individual champions. What else might have been going on under the surface and behind the scene deponent saith not.

Sure, but the pressure to innovate from under the Gbaba threat of extinction must have been obvious even to them. Add in other examples like WWII, the Cold War and what ever other wars they could have looked up on Wikipedia even Marxists had to understand when your back is to the wall then finding a technological equalizer is going to high on the list of things to do.

I always just assumed that Bedard was a brilliant idiot when she provided Egypt as an example. I mean even if you don’t bother to read about ancient Egyptian technology in detail she had to have known about these things called Pyramids and maybe heard about this stuff called papyrus. Heck they were improving building techniques because each ruler wanted a more badass tomb than their predecessor...

runsforcelery wrote:

Vinea wrote:
I was think more along the lines of Church run matches than letting the nobles do it. Either individual combat or other gladiatorial style contests. Winner gets the disputed territory or whatever. Damage to the loser is limited and the God is the arbiter.

Military ambition is channeled into forming the best hunger game teams as opposed to more innovative ways to kill the enemy.

You might even avoid allowing gunpowder as an allowed technology.

I see exactly what you're thinking. But evilauthor is absolutely right. Unless the rakurai were waiting to take out anyone who broke the rules, people would sooner or later start extrapolating from gang fights and mobs that get out of hand to larger issues and wonder why God wasn't smiting all those guys who were bashing each other over the head in the streets. And when that happened, so long Proscriptions.

There is a very sound reason for the old adage: "Never give an order you know won't be obeyed."

Moral authority is like virginity. You only get to lose it once.

I agree that you don’t give orders no one would obey. I might have tried to instill it as a custom rather than edict. Or the church would be the only one with a professional army?

Eh, it’s good that they didn’t think of it I guess. Works out better this way. Although you don’t always need the rakurai as the trump card if you provide the church with suitably big secular sticks to beat ambitious kingdoms into submission with.

Of course, we know how well that ultimately turned out in the end...

Vinea wrote:
I was think more along the lines of Church run matches than letting the nobles do it. Either individual combat or other gladiatorial style contests. Winner gets the disputed territory or whatever. Damage to the loser is limited and the God is the arbiter.

Military ambition is channeled into forming the best hunger game teams as opposed to more innovative ways to kill the enemy.

You might even avoid allowing gunpowder as an allowed technology.

Gunpowder was bribed into existence as a building tool, not a weapon.

True.

But it is still a valuable illustration of the instability of the entire structure.

Isilith wrote:

Vinea wrote:
I was think more along the lines of Church run matches than letting the nobles do it. Either individual combat or other gladiatorial style contests. Winner gets the disputed territory or whatever. Damage to the loser is limited and the God is the arbiter.

Military ambition is channeled into forming the best hunger game teams as opposed to more innovative ways to kill the enemy.

You might even avoid allowing gunpowder as an allowed technology.

Gunpowder was bribed into existence as a building tool, not a weapon.