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TFT snippet #3

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Re: TFT snippet #3
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:59 am

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Direwolf18 wrote: Once sure, twice, it could be hand waved away I guess, but people might start wondering. Three times? Yea at that point people are going to notice, coincidence only goes so far.


The general assumption would be that Cayleb and Sharleyne poisoned them for some reason (after all, Safehold is still pretty old-fashioned culture, and poison was the pretty common instrument among the aristocracy). Political reason, most probably. Getting rid of the opposition, that may stand on the way of their attempts to disband Parliament, suppress aristocracy, and - with "Church of Charis" in their pockets - establish themselves as tyrannical totalitarian rulers :twisted:
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- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: TFT snippet #3
Post by Isilith   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:32 am

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Randomiser wrote:@ElaineofShallott regarding recording personalities. Thanks for the detail in your post on Friday, which I why I'm not quoting it here. I guess I'm about 80% convinced

The reason for the other 20% is that almost all the quotes you provide are about Nahrman and his current situation, when everyone agrees that his position is due to Merlin using an inappropriate device in an imminent death situation. The question being could they successfully do it some other way if they had plenty of time and a cooperative subject. The only quote that suggests otherwise is the one about finding a personality for the second PICA. The reason they couldn't use someone else is never actually specified. However there was some time pressure there also; they could always have recorded Merlin but wanted the PICA operational faster that that could be done. Just maybe that's why they couldn't record one of the others in a safe way as well - it would have taken too long. Say 20% chance. ;)


I agree with you, just wasn't going to argue over it and go looking for the textev. But at one point it says something along the lines of how even the human brain radiates out the information. Now it doesn't say how long it would take, or even if it was possible, but it was a weird aside to toss in for no reason.
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Re: TFT snippet #3
Post by elaineofshalott   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:53 am

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Isilith wrote:
Randomiser wrote:@ElaineofShallott regarding recording personalities. Thanks for the detail in your post on Friday, which I why I'm not quoting it here. I guess I'm about 80% convinced

The reason for the other 20% is that almost all the quotes you provide are about Nahrman and his current situation, when everyone agrees that his position is due to Merlin using an inappropriate device in an imminent death situation. The question being could they successfully do it some other way if they had plenty of time and a cooperative subject. The only quote that suggests otherwise is the one about finding a personality for the second PICA. The reason they couldn't use someone else is never actually specified. However there was some time pressure there also; they could always have recorded Merlin but wanted the PICA operational faster that that could be done. Just maybe that's why they couldn't record one of the others in a safe way as well - it would have taken too long. Say 20% chance. ;)


I agree with you, just wasn't going to argue over it and go looking for the textev. But at one point it says something along the lines of how even the human brain radiates out the information. Now it doesn't say how long it would take, or even if it was possible, but it was a weird aside to toss in for no reason.

I recommend you read the whole scene I quoted from. Merlin was being evasive when he said that and Nahrmahn called him on it and Merlin admitted the process of getting anything near a complete recording required receptors. That the same reasons he told them they couldn't use the NEATs applied to the recording of personalities. Even if a few decades of passive recording could get a recording that like Nahrmahn is mostly complete, since it requires active brain activity it certainly would strain credulity for it to work on Eastshare in cryo.
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Re: TFT snippet #3
Post by Isilith   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:56 am

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dobriennm wrote:
elaineofshalott wrote:So we have our first person the inner circle informs who completely rejects the truth. At least since Merlin woke up.

It had to happen some time.


I'm kind of surprised they tried to take EastShare into the inner circle.

He always struck me as being the type that was a true believer and was going against Mother Church because of the corruption of the Church by the Gang of Four.

They may have felt they didn't have a choice because he was so integral to the Imperial Army and taking down the armies of the COGA. They may have felt they couldn't sideline him after the war and being a smart man would have figured out the sejinns had way more than human capabilities if they continued to work closely together. Thus, potentially demons.

But as you said, it had to happen sometime


Agree 100% with you, I would have never ( from how he was presented to us ) have tried to bring him into the inner circle.
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Re: TFT snippet #3
Post by Isilith   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:01 pm

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elaineofshalott wrote:I recommend you read the whole scene I quoted from. Merlin was being evasive when he said that and Nahrmahn called him on it and Merlin admitted the process of getting anything near a complete recording required receptors. That the same reasons he told them they couldn't use the NEATs applied to the recording of personalities. Even if a few decades of passive recording could get a recording that like Nahrmahn is mostly complete, since it requires active brain activity it certainly would strain credulity for it to work on Eastshare in cryo.


That I absolutely agree with you on. I don't see being able to passively record a full personality from someone in cryo. We can't assume that there would be enough brain activity, if there is any at all. Seeing as we don't know which type of "Cryo" exists in this universe. He could be in a deep sleep and dreaming, where it might be possible, or he could be fully frozen with zero to negligible brain activity.

Passive recording, if possible, would require normal consciousness and a good bit of time. ( weeks to months even )
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Re: TFT snippet #3
Post by WeberFan   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:22 pm

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Randomiser wrote:With the war over, I can't say I see any urgency to bring Eastshare into the Inner Circle and a lot of obvious negatives in having to disappear him. This doesn't seem a very rational decision, I think Cayleb and Sharley have allowed their emotions to outweigh logic and got bitten.

One high profile character having a heart attack after a private dinner with the Emperor and Empress is unfortunate, two would be coincidence, three ... They need to be even more careful not repeat this kind of failure.

The war in the FIRST series is over... We don't yet have enough information about what has happened since then... It's possible that something is going on with North Harchong (See the last part of the snippet) or somewhere else that would require that Eastshare be called out of retirement. He was - IIRC - the very first ever "General of the Armies" (whatever the actual term was I don't recall, but I remember reading the story). My point: Who knows WHAT has happened in the past 6 years (war ended in 897 and this snippet with Eastshare story took place in 903?)
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Re: TFT snippet #3
Post by JRM   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:44 pm

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WeberFan wrote:
Randomiser wrote:With the war over, I can't say I see any urgency to bring Eastshare into the Inner Circle and a lot of obvious negatives in having to disappear him. This doesn't seem a very rational decision, I think Cayleb and Sharley have allowed their emotions to outweigh logic and got bitten.

One high profile character having a heart attack after a private dinner with the Emperor and Empress is unfortunate, two would be coincidence, three ... They need to be even more careful not repeat this kind of failure.

The war in the FIRST series is over... We don't yet have enough information about what has happened since then... It's possible that something is going on with North Harchong (See the last part of the snippet) or somewhere else that would require that Eastshare be called out of retirement. He was - IIRC - the very first ever "General of the Armies" (whatever the actual term was I don't recall, but I remember reading the story). My point: Who knows WHAT has happened in the past 6 years (war ended in 897 and this snippet with Eastshare story took place in 903?)


The snippet with Eastshare's story took place in March 901. David added the chapter and section heading of August 903 to his next shippet about Harchong.
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Re: TFT snippet #3
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:55 pm

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Randomiser wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:
Hmmm... who I'm thinking of now is Sandaria Ghatfryd. Because if she had decided that Merlin, OWL and Narhman were really demons who'd fooled Nynian, Cayleb, Sharleyan's er al, she had an awful lot of experience in hiding what she's truly thinking while working for Helm Cleaver and the Sisterhood. Not to mention lots of experience in working on a very long term plan.

So her conversion to the truth could be fake - <snip>.


The difficulty with that is she would have to be fooling Nynian who has been her bestie and superior for years and years, not to mention being one of the smartest characters in the story AND any Remote monitoring of her that, say, Nahrman, is doing (Oh yes he is ...) Just sayin...


Oh, yes, it's a bit of a long shot. But of all the characters who've had the truth revealed to them, Sandaria is the one with the most practice in dissembling under conditions of extreme danger.

And the moment when she announced that she'd seen the light, so to speak, was a moment when everyone (including Nynian) were distracted by planning how to safely re-integrate little Stephanie and her family. And pleased by how well the father had taken the news that the church was a fraud - so psychologically primed to accept that everyone will accept their version of events.

Of course, if Sandaria was convinced this 'truth' was demonic deception, to her that would be the moment when it would become obvious that this heresy could spread across Safehold.

Besides, if Eastshare's going to re-enter the story (which he might not) somebody's got to let him out. :)
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Re: TFT snippet #3
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:06 pm

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Isilith wrote:
Agree 100% with you, I would have never ( from how he was presented to us ) have tried to bring him into the inner circle.


I think RFC is presenting it as an example of sheer overconfidence on the part of Cayleb, Sharleyann and Merlin. They have, after all, had an apparent 100% success rate with everyone else they've revealed the truth too.

I notice that Nynian doesn't seem to have been involved - of course, she doesn't know Eastshare as well as the others. But she'd at least had personal experience of the 'sad accidents' that sometimes had to be arranged when the Sisterhood discovered that they'd revealed their purpose to the wrong teenager.
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Re: TFT snippet #3
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:25 pm

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I knew from the moment that it was mentioned that Eastshare would not accept. His iron boned integrity was always a major part of who he was. I believe that his removal at this time is to accomplish 3 things.

1, the reveal HAD to fail at some time. At this time it reminds the readers exactly what the inner circle is up against. There are good people that we care about as characters that cannot accept the truth or else it becomes a straw monster, no real threat.

2. It brings in a theme of tension: how will the world accept? Will Cayleb and Sharley end up with marrital issues because of this? Many more too some of which have been already mentioned.

3. It safely removes a main character in a way that opens up the roster for someone else while keeping him available in storage if he becomes needed later.
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