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Questions on Terran Federation Tech

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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:08 am

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phillies wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:

Fire is, indeed, the main killer of ships that don't sink outright. However, have you really looked at late-WW II USN firefighting equipment and training? The survival of the Franklin and the Bunker Hill wasn't exactly purely fortuitous.


Dilandu wrote:That's the factor often missed in discussions about the Pacific War - the fact that USN ships have literally the best damage control parties in the world, and were build from STS steel (basically homogenous armor) instead of usual construction steel. No other navy of WW2 era could afford to use such expensive materials. So, basically, the average USN warship could survive twice as much damage as average IJN warship of similar class (Japanese were notoriously bad in damage control... and their ships were structurally weak, overweight with weapon)


These readers will doubtless recall that when the Hiei engaged US destroyers and was set on fire, it had serious problems, though there is some dispute as to exactly how it was sent to the bottom, and exactly where. The sunken hull of the Kirishima, on the other hand, has apparently been found.

Readers may also recall the Japanese BB that was given depth charge racks, just in case, or the CL that was given so much extra weaponry that it capsized.



For that matter, the Long Lance came with a nasty hidden price tag: liquid oxygen stored in the torpedoes themselves and in reservoirs aboard ship. Care to guess what happened when they took a shell hit and the fires started? At least one of the Japanese heavies disabled by destroyer gunfire and torpedoes off Samar probably succumbed to the explosion of her own torpedoes.


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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by ywing14   » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:16 am

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Yeah but the Long Lance was a killer early in the war around Java and the Solomon campaign. There's the old trade off.
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:49 pm

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ywing14 wrote:Yeah but the Long Lance was a killer early in the war around Java and the Solomon campaign. There's the old trade off.


Never said it wasn't. Just that there were downsides to it, just like there were downsides to going to a cannon armament: magazines that could explode on you.

Naval design is always a series of compromises. The designer decides what he needs most, then designs around that. in the case of the IJN, its designers were told it needed a weapon that would allow the USN battle fleet to be whittled down as it crossed the Pacific to a Jutland somewhere off the Home Islands, and a weapon which could be delivered in poor visibility conditions from relatively inexpensive and numerous platforms was the answer. Obviously, the Long Lance would also be a killer in fleet combat, but it's primary function was attritional . . . exactly as the Japanese used it in the destroyer-versus-cruiser actions off Guadalcanal.

Were I the IJN, I might have followed the US model and pulled the torpedoes from the cruisers and up. Or maybe settled for something whose power plant was a little less . . . energetic than the Long Lance's, but it was the perfect weapon system for light combatants in a pre-radar age. It as simply Japan's misfortune that by 1943, they were no longer in a pre-radar age. Hard to blame the interwar years designers and operators for not seeing that coming.


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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:16 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
For that matter, the Long Lance came with a nasty hidden price tag: liquid oxygen stored in the torpedoes themselves and in reservoirs aboard ship. Care to guess what happened when they took a shell hit and the fires started? At least one of the Japanese heavies disabled by destroyer gunfire and torpedoes off Samar probably succumbed to the explosion of her own torpedoes.


Well, as far as its known, the IJN heavy cruiser "Chokai" was disabled by a single hit from 5-inch gun of the ESCORT CARRIER. Exactly due to "Long Lance" detonation as a result.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:23 pm

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ywing14 wrote:Yeah but the Long Lance was a killer early in the war around Java and the Solomon campaign. There's the old trade off.


It was effective, yes, but Japanese were largely disappointed by its performance. The hit probability was MUCH lower than they theoretically expected for long-range torpedo hits, and they put a lot of emphasis in their doctrine on long-range torpedo attacks - as a means to weaken the USN battleline before actual combat. Turned out, that in case of battleships vs battleships action, the Japanese long torpedo launches would be more a waste of torpedoes than a vial tactics.

Japanese later started to work on guided torpedoes - and no, I did NOT mean "piloted". Two acoustic homing torpedoes were in development, and, frankly, they were rather more ingenious solutions than crude German's "we-could-not-build-a-normal-weapon-but-we-would-claim-that-we-almost-build-a-wunderwaffe" staff.

P.S. By the way, do you know that Germans managed to deploy their Hs 293 and Fritz-X guided bombs in 1943 only because they stole the French radio guidance system for BHT-38 French guided bomb? ;)
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by ywing14   » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:46 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
ywing14 wrote:Yeah but the Long Lance was a killer early in the war around Java and the Solomon campaign. There's the old trade off.


It was effective, yes, but Japanese were largely disappointed by its performance. The hit probability was MUCH lower than they theoretically expected for long-range torpedo hits, and they put a lot of emphasis in their doctrine on long-range torpedo attacks - as a means to weaken the USN battleline before actual combat. Turned out, that in case of battleships vs battleships action, the Japanese long torpedo launches would be more a waste of torpedoes than a vial tactics.

Japanese later started to work on guided torpedoes - and no, I did NOT mean "piloted". Two acoustic homing torpedoes were in development, and, frankly, they were rather more ingenious solutions than crude German's "we-could-not-build-a-normal-weapon-but-we-would-claim-that-we-almost-build-a-wunderwaffe" staff.

P.S. By the way, do you know that Germans managed to deploy their Hs 293 and Fritz-X guided bombs in 1943 only because they stole the French radio guidance system for BHT-38 French guided bomb? ;)


Haha yes I was aware of that. And I'm not saying the Long Lance didn't have its downsides. I was merely saying there were trade offs like any weapon. Give how well the Mk 14s and Mk 15s were doing early in the war at least the Long Lance was reliable. The Mk 14 got John Wayne's Captain and friend killed in Operation Pacific. Thankfully, John Wayne was able to fix US torpedoes.
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:13 am

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ywing14 wrote:Haha yes I was aware of that. And I'm not saying the Long Lance didn't have its downsides. I was merely saying there were trade offs like any weapon. Give how well the Mk 14s and Mk 15s were doing early in the war at least the Long Lance was reliable. The Mk 14 got John Wayne's Captain and friend killed in Operation Pacific. Thankfully, John Wayne was able to fix US torpedoes.


Yes, and this was clearly the organization mistake - that USN pre-war hardware weren't tested properly. The IJN seems to consider reliability of the weapon systems as most important trait - they apparently understood, that weapon needed to work in real conditions.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Panzer   » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:08 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:

Fire is, indeed, the main killer of ships that don't sink outright. However, have you really looked at late-WW II USN firefighting equipment and training? The survival of the Franklin and the Bunker Hill wasn't exactly purely fortuitous.


That's the factor often missed in discussions about the Pacific War - the fact that USN ships have literally the best damage control parties in the world, and were build from STS steel (basically homogenous armor) instead of usual construction steel. No other navy of WW2 era could afford to use such expensive materials. So, basically, the average USN warship could survive twice as much damage as average IJN warship of similar class (Japanese were notoriously bad in damage control... and their ships were structurally weak, overweight with weapon)


Have you ever read Shattered Sword? It has a really good explanation of how Japanese damage control practices likely doomed their 4 carriers at Midway. Even given Japan's shortage of materials, there are practices that they could have implemented which would have increased the survivability of their carriers. For example, the US navy recently started filling the carrier's fuel lines with C02 while clearing for action. If the Japanese would have done that, it would have increased the survival of their carriers because they wouldn't have had fuel in the pipes to slosh around the hangar decks and ignite.


Even the early war US damage control was better than any damage control that the Japanese implemented. Had it not been for a rather lucky Japanese submarine, the USN would likely have managed to save Yorktown again.
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:03 pm

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Panzer wrote:
Have you ever read Shattered Sword? It has a really good explanation of how Japanese damage control practices likely doomed their 4 carriers at Midway. Even given Japan's shortage of materials, there are practices that they could have implemented which would have increased the survivability of their carriers. For example, the US navy recently started filling the carrier's fuel lines with C02 while clearing for action. If the Japanese would have done that, it would have increased the survival of their carriers because they wouldn't have had fuel in the pipes to slosh around the hangar decks and ignite.


Even the early war US damage control was better than any damage control that the Japanese implemented. Had it not been for a rather lucky Japanese submarine, the USN would likely have managed to save Yorktown again.


I did not, but I perfectly agree with everything)
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by runsforcelery   » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:53 am

runsforcelery
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Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

Dilandu wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Have you ever read Shattered Sword? It has a really good explanation of how Japanese damage control practices likely doomed their 4 carriers at Midway. Even given Japan's shortage of materials, there are practices that they could have implemented which would have increased the survivability of their carriers. For example, the US navy recently started filling the carrier's fuel lines with C02 while clearing for action. If the Japanese would have done that, it would have increased the survival of their carriers because they wouldn't have had fuel in the pipes to slosh around the hangar decks and ignite.


Even the early war US damage control was better than any damage control that the Japanese implemented. Had it not been for a rather lucky Japanese submarine, the USN would likely have managed to save Yorktown again.


I did not, but I perfectly agree with everything)



I have read it, and it's very good. If you can find a Kindle version (or whatever your choice of poison is), i think you'd like it, Dilandu.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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