Real Tanks

Dilandu wrote:

phillies wrote:That's the old British doctrine on infantry tanks. It was wrong.

It was the initial tank doctrine. And it is the only one that Safehould could even contemplate of using.

Why do you say it is the only one that Safehold could even contemplate using? Keep in mind that Merlin and inner council have access to the historical records, so they know that the initial British tank doctrine was wrong. Also, given what we've been told there is going to be a 20 year time jump. That is plenty of time to make tanks and develop doctrine for their use. Especially considering the initial series only covered 9 years.

Henry Brown wrote:

Dilandu wrote:
Why do you say it is the only one that Safehold could even contemplate using? Keep in mind that Merlin and inner council have access to the historical records, so they know that the initial British tank doctrine was wrong. Also, given what we've been told there is going to be a 20 year time jump. That is plenty of time to make tanks and develop doctrine for their use. Especially considering the initial series only covered 9 years.

Sigh. Because any attempt to use any modern doctrines in Safehold conditions would be utterly useless. The "initial British tank doctrine" wasn't "wrong"; it was perfectly right for it time (especially after France worked it to perfection).

Dilandu wrote:
Sigh. Because any attempt to use any modern doctrines in Safehold conditions would be utterly useless. The "initial British tank doctrine" wasn't "wrong"; it was perfectly right for it time (especially after France worked it to perfection).

Hi Dilandu, did you have any success arguing that the King Haarahld VII was excessive? This book series has 9 published books in it. Give us just one example where Himself limited development to the pace of our time line. Armies using cartridges in breech loading rifle is the current standard. How long can it be until a Gatling or a Maxim is built. It is just like naval mines. Charis could have made them, but didn't because it gave more advantage to their enemies.

As for the use of a tank where David skips 30 or 40 years of development, consider that the dragons will pull 30 tons of freight. We can build a tank carrier by sticking another axle on the back and add an axle to the steering truck of a freight platform, and then harnessing two dragons in front to carry a T90MS. How tanks are used really depends on how fast oil production and transportation is developed.

JRM wrote:As for the use of a tank where David skips 30 or 40 years of development, consider that the dragons will pull 30 tons of freight. We can build a tank carrier by sticking another axle on the back and add an axle to the steering truck of a freight platform, and then harnessing two dragons in front to carry a T90MS. How tanks are used really depends on how fast oil production and transportation is developed.

I'm suddenly imagining that the first Safehold "tank" would be a Flintstones style contraption of wrapping a dragon in a steel armored box and sticking a gun turret on top. PROBABLY not designed by Charis.

Who says that the 30 tons hauled by the dragon has to be BEHIND the dragon?

Dilandu wrote:
Sigh. Because any attempt to use any modern doctrines in Safehold conditions would be utterly useless. The "initial British tank doctrine" wasn't "wrong"; it was perfectly right for it time (especially after France worked it to perfection).

More specificially because modern tank doctorine requires radio to co-ordinate on both a tactical and strategic level. German tanks in the invasion of France were inferior in guns and armour to the Allied tanks. BUT every single one had a radio in it and they had used that to evolve armoured division blitzkreig doctorine.

Also remember than this doctorine requires the use of airpower as a substitute for ground artillery if it is to succeed in neutralizing strong points. Towed artillery CANNOT keep up with advancing infantry and tanks which is a bitter lesson from WW1 and the main cause breakthroughs didn't happen then.

Along with logistics, communications is woefully overlooked by armchair strategists.

Silverwall wrote:
More specificially because modern tank doctorine requires radio to co-ordinate on both a tactical and strategic level. German tanks in the invasion of France were inferior in guns and armour to the Allied tanks. BUT every single one had a radio in it and they had used that to evolve armoured division blitzkreig doctorine.

Also remember than this doctorine requires the use of airpower as a substitute for ground artillery if it is to succeed in neutralizing strong points. Towed artillery CANNOT keep up with advancing infantry and tanks which is a bitter lesson from WW1 and the main cause breakthroughs didn't happen then.

Along with logistics, communications is woefully overlooked by armchair strategists.

Up to now, the Safehold series has been a repeat of the technical advances of our history. The new books are going to have to create an alternative at least temporarily to exclude the detectable use of electricity. The new book has dirigibles with propellers. Are they powered by a Doble's type steam engine or by a diesel? If the engines are diesel, then there has to be advances to gear cutting, and oil extraction, oil refining, and oil transportation.

I think that the next series of books is going to be more fascinating than the previous books, because of the electricity alternatives. For each we will ask ourselves, could that really work? This is true for tanks, cars, trucks, planes, household refrigerators, central house heating, air conditioning, and communication.

JRM wrote:

Silverwall wrote:
More specificially because modern tank doctorine requires radio to co-ordinate on both a tactical and strategic level. German tanks in the invasion of France were inferior in guns and armour to the Allied tanks. BUT every single one had a radio in it and they had used that to evolve armoured division blitzkreig doctorine.

Also remember than this doctorine requires the use of airpower as a substitute for ground artillery if it is to succeed in neutralizing strong points. Towed artillery CANNOT keep up with advancing infantry and tanks which is a bitter lesson from WW1 and the main cause breakthroughs didn't happen then.

Along with logistics, communications is woefully overlooked by armchair strategists.

Up to now, the Safehold series has been a repeat of the technical advances of our history. The new books are going to have to create an alternative at least temporarily to exclude the detectable use of electricity. The new book has dirigibles with propellers. Are they powered by a Doble's type steam engine or by a diesel? If the engines are diesel, then there has to be advances to gear cutting, and oil extraction, oil refining, and oil transportation.

I think that the next series of books is going to be more fascinating than the previous books, because of the electricity alternatives. For each we will ask ourselves, could that really work? This is true for tanks, cars, trucks, planes, household refrigerators, central house heating, air conditioning, and communication.

The real acid tests will be flight and Communications

Flight is hard without detectable electricity but doable to at least the recon level.

Communications is impossible and I believe that if he wants it RFC will continue to use the magical SNARKS and terran fed tech he has the inner circle use. Otherwise your tactical comms are limited to flags and the speed or a runner/horseman. Flags barely work in an ACW style engagements let alone in dispursed modern combat. Given safeholds tech level there is NO know com tech that doesn't give off detectable EM radiation which we all currently believe is a big no-no.

Two naïve questions:

1. Couldn't you use fiber optic cable for communication? No electrons involved, just photons …


2. Couldn't Peerless Author introduce computers rather than abacuses? hydraulic computing does it all via water/mechanical gearing, and is sometimes used in rugged environments, although it's far slower than today's electronic gear.

Dilandu wrote:

phillies wrote:
True, but rifled muskets are already adequate to create this difficulty, as folks following Hardee's infantry tactical manual rapidly learned during the War of the Slaveholder's Rebellion.

Nah. As long as it's just rifle muskets and not machineguns & magazine fast-firing rifles, tanks would be more a problem than an advantage. Especially steam-powered ones, which have unfortunate problem of super-heated steam inside.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the Battle of Cold Harbor or Grant's siege lines against Richmond. Rifled muskets are entirely adequate to stop an infantry charge.

wkernochan wrote:Two naïve questions:

1. Couldn't you use fiber optic cable for communication? No electrons involved, just photons …


2. Couldn't Peerless Author introduce computers rather than abacuses? hydraulic computing does it all via water/mechanical gearing, and is sometimes used in rugged environments, although it's far slower than today's electronic gear.

1) Nope. Fiber still requires electrical signal boosters and electrical conversion readouts and amplifiers. Our fibre modem at home requires a power connection to function and a PC to translate the digital signal and control the laser sending the pulses.

Secondly for the sort of tactical use we are talking about in the original topic of this thread fibre is just as useless as phone lines which were proved totally insufficient during battles like the Somme.

2) Mechancial computers can be build to assist with big engineering calculations like a shipwright would need or even a basic fire control computer but most of these would be single use devices. You can also build Babbage type difference engines but they would be firmly mounted in large buildings just like the early manframes but with much lower/slower outputs. Good for things like artillery tables and basic science research but nothing like the modern conception of the PC. In fact they are less powerful and much much slower than the devices built in WW2 at Bletchly park.

As to his Analytical engine I strongly suggest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rtKoKFGFSM

Fascinating device but even today we can't build it physically and I don't believe they have even been able to build a 3d virtual model that works as the notes are all incomplete. Also it would be steam powered as it is 7 metres long!