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Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech along?

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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:49 pm

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Goody, goody! More clues to use in our efforts of speculation.

We know that the hole beneath the Temple is very deep. We know that the hole was dug after the War Against the fallen. We know that Seijin Khody died before the WAtF was over. We know that the SSK was formed before the WAtF was over.

I wonder just how much documentary information is available on how deep the hole the AA actually dug? There were people living in the area. There should have been some Adams and Eves or at least children of Adams and Eves living in the area. They should have written records and the SSK may well have kept some of those records in their archives somewhere.

Also, there should be some data on what sorts of servitors those SSK ancestors witnessed or have documentation on.

If the construction of the Temple was done without anyone noticing, it argues for the Inner Circle being able to hide similar construction in some remote location. Well, not nearly as large, but large enough to house parts of a dispersed production system. If people did notice the construction, then there should be some documentary evidence about the construction. Inferences can be made from that evidence.

I really want to read this book!
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:58 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
If the construction of the Temple was done without anyone noticing, it argues for the Inner Circle being able to hide similar construction in some remote location. Well, not nearly as large, but large enough to house parts of a dispersed production system. If people did notice the construction, then there should be some documentary evidence about the construction. Inferences can be made from that evidence.

I really want to read this book!


Interesting, but hardly mattered. Whoever won the WaF clearly have situation around the Temple under tight control, so they probably make sure that no one would see what they are not supposed to see.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:03 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Goody, goody! More clues to use in our efforts of speculation.

We know that the hole beneath the Temple is very deep. We know that the hole was dug after the War Against the fallen. We know that Seijin Khody died before the WAtF was over. We know that the SSK was formed before the WAtF was over.

I wonder just how much documentary information is available on how deep the hole the AA actually dug? There were people living in the area. There should have been some Adams and Eves or at least children of Adams and Eves living in the area. They should have written records and the SSK may well have kept some of those records in their archives somewhere.

Also, there should be some data on what sorts of servitors those SSK ancestors witnessed or have documentation on.

If the construction of the Temple was done without anyone noticing, it argues for the Inner Circle being able to hide similar construction in some remote location. Well, not nearly as large, but large enough to house parts of a dispersed production system. If people did notice the construction, then there should be some documentary evidence about the construction. Inferences can be made from that evidence.

I really want to read this book!



Conclusion based on facts not in evidence: "There were people living in the area."

In fact, there were not people living in what is now Zion when the Temple was built. That's one reason the "world capital" is located in a place where winter is so long and so savage that hundred an even thousands of homeless and/or poor routinely freeze to death or starve over the winter. The Temple Lands grew up from and extended outward from the Temple (aside from the enclaves on the south shore of Lake Pei), and the Temple was located where it is because Chihiro was rebuilding his citadel on the site of the "Archangels'" home on earth. The command crew's enclave had been built in an area that was inhospitable enough that its personnel wouldn't have to spend bunches of time being archangels just to keep the local rubes from figuring out that they weren't archangels. That is, the physical separation was part of maintaining the lie. The city of Zion grew up around the Temple only during the final stages of the War Against the Fallen, by which time Chihiro and the rest of the surviving command crew were perfectly happy being "Archangels" 26.5-5.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by Joat42   » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:07 pm

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Some thoughts:
  • Where did the tailings go from the excavation? Dumped in the sea? If you can find them you can guesstimate the size of the excavation.
  • Did they disassemble the Hamilcar and put it under the temple?
  • Passive scanning of the temple could be done by building something that mimics fed tech that is known to have been inside the temple, the key for example.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:16 pm

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Joat42 wrote:Some thoughts:
[list]
[*]Where did the tailings go from the excavation? Dumped in the sea? If you can find them you can guesstimate the size of the excavation.


Doubt that. Almost a thousand years passed since that. Any possible material would be dispersed greatly by currents.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by Joat42   » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:28 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Joat42 wrote:Some thoughts:
Where did the tailings go from the excavation? Dumped in the sea? If you can find them you can guesstimate the size of the excavation.

Doubt that. Almost a thousand years passed since that. Any possible material would be dispersed greatly by currents.

Most rocks doesn't move in currents. I'm assuming that using federation tech to excavate you cut the rock out in large chunks since it's easier to do that and transport it.

Also, Merlin has all the information from the original topographical scans and it should be relatively easy to find a dumping site with new scans, if they can be made without the OBS paying attention.

I guess the question comes down to how useful that bit of information is versus just assuming that the excavation was BIG.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:55 pm

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Joat42 wrote:Most rocks doesn't move in currents. I'm assuming that using federation tech to excavate you cut the rock out in large chunks since it's easier to do that and transport it.

Also, Merlin has all the information from the original topographical scans and it should be relatively easy to find a dumping site with new scans, if they can be made without the OBS paying attention.

I guess the question comes down to how useful that bit of information is versus just assuming that the excavation was BIG.


I'm not sure that cutting & hauling big chunks of rock is better than shattering them into the gravel - from the practical points of view. Also, gravel is more useful.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by thanatos   » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:39 pm

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Joat42 wrote:Some thoughts:
  • Where did the tailings go from the excavation? Dumped in the sea? If you can find them you can guesstimate the size of the excavation.
  • Did they disassemble the Hamilcar and put it under the temple?
  • Passive scanning of the temple could be done by building something that mimics fed tech that is known to have been inside the temple, the key for example.


Another thing people seem to forget is the ubiquity of wireless/cloud computer storage systems and nanotechnology within TF technology. If anything, the Temple and the OBS should be viewed more along the lines of an artificially created organism, one capable of rendering repairs at the molecular level. And like living organisms, those technological constructs need to be "fed" with sufficient raw materials to sustain themselves and their standby functions. I would assume that the Temple and OBS are both capable of far more than just serving as awe-inspiring examples of divinity on earth and to bomb any Safeholdian nation back into the stone age. They just haven't needed to expend their resources beyond those maintenance levels in over 700 local years.

But the bottom line is that like living organisms, the TD would have constructed its hyper capable vessels in a manner that matches this technology, i.e. that they could "grow" ships with billions of nanites that constructed them around a skeleton of some kind. So I would surmise that hyper capable ships would have to be built in space, both because of the need for space to build it and because zero-gee would make moving and shipping materials around faster and cheaper. For these and other reasons, I seriously doubt Hamilcar is hiding beneath the Temple. A ship that size might be able to make landfall but think for a moment how much thrust you would need to launch it back in space. And why dig such a giant hole in the ground to hide a hyper-capable ship when leaving it to float in orbit, or among the asteroids in the system (as was originally planned) or simply sending it into the local sun would be easier? What conceivable reason would Chihiro and his colleagues have to land such a giant ship into a hole in the ground and then build the temple on top of it? What advantage would that give them against the "Fallen"? And if they ascribed to Langhorne anti-technology mania, preserving it as they did throughout the WAtF was only a temporary measure.
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by Alistair   » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:32 pm

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wow getting an extra Snippet! Thank you DW
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by mhicks   » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:18 pm

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Too much good stuff going on here. OMG snippets out of context... and people asking good questions I don't know where to start.

Joat42 and Dilandu were talking about the large hole under the temple. I was thinking why not build the CoGA empire with the materials pulled from the hole. Gravel and sand to make the foundations for the roads, cement for the canals, or large blocks of rock to make the cathedrals in all the lands. How better to prove your ability than to produce perfectly quarried rocks and building the first Cathedrals of the same material and to use the quarry under the temple. In the end I think the hole was big enough for the Himlecar to be buried under the temple fully intact. This could have been done for one of two reasons.
1. Hide it away so the archangels had accesss to all of it whenever they wanted it, and they are all still living in there in hyper sleep and come out once a decade, to stretch and eat and go back to sleep for another 10 years or so... 1000 years = 100 days you are good to go after that.
2. put a machine with that much potential deep in the earth and use it as a threat of a super nuke, world ender, Dooms day device and threaten all the remaining angels to fall in line or the human race ends today. A bit idiotic but it could happen.
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