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Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech along?

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Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech along?
Post by Alistair   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:21 am

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I was wondering now that the peace has been declared wether it would be possible to get a small team in Merlins cave get them uptodate on Terran tech and have them tweak it in a way that would make it possible to take out the bombardment system or other stuff?

Obviously it would be a 10-50 year project and they may not have that time. But it would be handy if they could and they already have a university library available as a base.
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by edgeworthy   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:16 am

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It's fairly clear that while Nimue was a Tactical Officer, she was more along the lines of Oddball's statement that "I just ride the things ... I don't know what makes them work!".
So its possible that a fresh perspective, especially from someone with more of an Engineering or Scientific inclination might come up with something.
(Assuming its not just OWL)
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:42 pm

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edgeworthy wrote:It's fairly clear that while Nimue was a Tactical Officer, she was more along the lines of Oddball's statement that "I just ride the things ... I don't know what makes them work!".
So its possible that a fresh perspective, especially from someone with more of an Engineering or Scientific inclination might come up with something.
(Assuming its not just OWL)



Um, I think some people have a possibly . . . over enthusiastic concept of how much heavy industry can be hidden underground from sophisticated sensors like those Merlin & Co. know the bombardment system has. They can expand significantly; they cannot expand to a level which is going to let them go toe-to-toe with what the Temple may have hidden in the basement or with the bombardment system.

The Fallen were able to last as long as they did because (for reasons which Will Become Clear) they had a lot of relatively small, dispersed industrial modes hidden away (none of which, admittedly, were hidden under Mount Olympus) even before open combat between them and the Archangels began. They were small and dispersed partly because the Fallen were operating on a shoe string but also because they knew the odds of their managing to hide them long term were slight. They were averse to keeping their eggs in too few baskets. And none of them had the sort of footprint Nimue's Cave already has.

When you start thinking about resource extraction and transport on the scale some people are suggesting, there is no way in the world to protect the Cave from detection even under Mount Olympus. The OBS's sensors might not pick up the signature itself (not saying it couldn't), but it would almost certainly pick up the support traffic. At which point it would analyze it to find the Cave.

This would not be a definite result; it would be a possible outcome and one of those "If we roll craps, there's no tomorrow" sort of situations. Which is likely to have a small impact on their thinking. :lol:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:36 pm

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Basically the main problem - they do not know exactly WHAT Rakurai Array or Powers-under-Temple could do and what couldn't. So they could not be sure that chosen way of "dealing with it" would actually work, but they could be pretty sure that in case it WOULDN'T work, something unpleasant quite probably happens.
------------------------------

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- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:55 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:Um, I think some people have a possibly . . . over enthusiastic concept of how much heavy industry can be hidden underground from sophisticated sensors like those Merlin & Co. know the bombardment system has. They can expand significantly; they cannot expand to a level which is going to let them go toe-to-toe with what the Temple may have hidden in the basement or with the bombardment system.

The Fallen were able to last as long as they did because (for reasons which Will Become Clear) they had a lot of relatively small, dispersed industrial modes hidden away (none of which, admittedly, were hidden under Mount Olympus) even before open combat between them and the Archangels began. They were small and dispersed partly because the Fallen were operating on a shoe string but also because they knew the odds of their managing to hide them long term were slight. They were averse to keeping their eggs in too few baskets. And none of them had the sort of footprint Nimue's Cave already has.

When you start thinking about resource extraction and transport on the scale some people are suggesting, there is no way in the world to protect the Cave from detection even under Mount Olympus. The OBS's sensors might not pick up the signature itself (not saying it couldn't), but it would almost certainly pick up the support traffic. At which point it would analyze it to find the Cave.

This would not be a definite result; it would be a possible outcome and one of those "If we roll craps, there's no tomorrow" sort of situations. Which is likely to have a small impact on their thinking. :lol:

Your post does suggest that setting up multiple industrial nodes is a good idea. At least the Fallen thought distributing eggs across many baskets is a good idea. Nothing really heavy, but with enough production scattered about there will be a foundation available to ramp up production when the OBS is dealt with. We know this will happen because of the date of the summary in the intro snippet.

The key issues will be just how big each unit will be. That suggests to me the SSK will begin using their network of abbeys and monasteries to accept small industrial units. If the resource extraction units are spread around Safehold and those shipments of resources follow a chain of refinement across that network until it hits the end product fabber.

With the increased amount of trade, hiding those shipments from ordinary Safeholdians is pretty easy. Most of the shipments will involve tons of new materials. Enough of these new materials that almost everyone will be comfortable with shipping things they are completely ignorant of. When the SSK is tied to an expansion of the Imperial University system, the IC can hide a good deal of technological infrastructure. Now, if Cayleb and Sharley can talk other nations into accepting campuses of the Imperial University, the network can spread into almost any nation on Safehold. Those satellite campuses can establish more remote research locations for the industrial units.

I really don't see the IC not repeating the Fallen's strategy of industrial dispersion. The only change I can see is reducing the energy foot print per location. Those industrial processes requiring the most energy would be located in the most remote locations, hidden by the most rock deep under ground. In the end, dealing with the OBS won't be accomplished by brute force, but by some sort of reconciliation with whatever is coming in the Return.
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by Joat42   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:03 pm

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My thoughts is that they need to set up off world resource extraction and build a habitat out of sight of the OBS.

How to get that up and running is an interesting problem though.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:24 pm

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Joat42 wrote:My thoughts is that they need to set up off world resource extraction and build a habitat out of sight of the OBS.

How to get that up and running is an interesting problem though.



Um. There's also the interesting point that no one knows how the OBS (or anything that might be hidden under the Temple) would react to spacecraft leaving planetary orbit. And as Dilandu pointed out above, that would be another of those mistakes you only get to make once.

Just saying.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by LadyWhirlwind   » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:30 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
Joat42 wrote:My thoughts is that they need to set up off world resource extraction and build a habitat out of sight of the OBS.

How to get that up and running is an interesting problem though.



Um. There's also the interesting point that no one knows how the OBS (or anything that might be hidden under the Temple) would react to spacecraft leaving planetary orbit. And as Dilandu pointed out above, that would be another of those mistakes you only get to make once.

Just saying.


They could use a stargate? :D
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:56 am

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PeterZ wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:Um, I think some people have a possibly . . . over enthusiastic concept of how much heavy industry can be hidden underground from sophisticated sensors like those Merlin & Co. know the bombardment system has. They can expand significantly; they cannot expand to a level which is going to let them go toe-to-toe with what the Temple may have hidden in the basement or with the bombardment system.

The Fallen were able to last as long as they did because (for reasons which Will Become Clear) they had a lot of relatively small, dispersed industrial modes hidden away (none of which, admittedly, were hidden under Mount Olympus) even before open combat between them and the Archangels began. They were small and dispersed partly because the Fallen were operating on a shoe string but also because they knew the odds of their managing to hide them long term were slight. They were averse to keeping their eggs in too few baskets. And none of them had the sort of footprint Nimue's Cave already has.

When you start thinking about resource extraction and transport on the scale some people are suggesting, there is no way in the world to protect the Cave from detection even under Mount Olympus. The OBS's sensors might not pick up the signature itself (not saying it couldn't), but it would almost certainly pick up the support traffic. At which point it would analyze it to find the Cave.

This would not be a definite result; it would be a possible outcome and one of those "If we roll craps, there's no tomorrow" sort of situations. Which is likely to have a small impact on their thinking. :lol:

Your post does suggest that setting up multiple industrial nodes is a good idea. At least the Fallen thought distributing eggs across many baskets is a good idea. Nothing really heavy, but with enough production scattered about there will be a foundation available to ramp up production when the OBS is dealt with. We know this will happen because of the date of the summary in the intro snippet.

The key issues will be just how big each unit will be. That suggests to me the SSK will begin using their network of abbeys and monasteries to accept small industrial units. If the resource extraction units are spread around Safehold and those shipments of resources follow a chain of refinement across that network until it hits the end product fabber.

With the increased amount of trade, hiding those shipments from ordinary Safeholdians is pretty easy. Most of the shipments will involve tons of new materials. Enough of these new materials that almost everyone will be comfortable with shipping things they are completely ignorant of. When the SSK is tied to an expansion of the Imperial University system, the IC can hide a good deal of technological infrastructure. Now, if Cayleb and Sharley can talk other nations into accepting campuses of the Imperial University, the network can spread into almost any nation on Safehold. Those satellite campuses can establish more remote research locations for the industrial units.

I really don't see the IC not repeating the Fallen's strategy of industrial dispersion. The only change I can see is reducing the energy foot print per location. Those industrial processes requiring the most energy would be located in the most remote locations, hidden by the most rock deep under ground. In the end, dealing with the OBS won't be accomplished by brute force, but by some sort of reconciliation with whatever is coming in the Return.



You don't, eh? Interesting. :ugeek:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Could the inner circle push the old Terran fed tech alon
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:08 am

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Yeah, I know, speculation built on assumptions can make an a$$ out of me. I'll risk it.
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