Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Daryl, Google [Bot] and 5 guests

The Barren Lands

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
The Barren Lands
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:41 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5704
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

This land mass has held my attention for at least the last three books. The land area is approximately the same size as Charis. The Barren Lands are the same distance from Corisande as Corisande is from Charis. Corisande is the most populated of the Imperial Charisian regions, iirc. That argues Corisande's population density is significantly higher than any other Charisian region. Also where Chisholm and Charis has room to grow into, Corisande does not. I believe that's one of the reasons Hektor was conquest focused; he needed lebensraum.

That being the case, it follows that Corisande can either grow into the Charisian region of Silverlode or seek its own territory. Given the competitive nature of Corisandian sentiment with regards to Charis, The Barren Lands may well offer an attractive proposition. That is if that land mass has raw materials to offer. The large interior lake offers a centralized, protected and efficient transportation potential between the two halves of the land mass. At the edge of the lake are two areas that offer places to build canals. Areas that seem more attractive to build canals than that which Silkiah used.

Since we haven't heard much from the Selkar and Myratha regions or the Kingdom of Sodar besides Sodar's poverty, one suspects that Selkar and Myratha are also poor nations. One further suspects that Irys, Hektor and Daivyn are wealthy enough to fund colonies that would recruit from those poor Howard nations as well as any undocumented Desnairian citizens that might reach a Charisian ship headed that way. One suspects that The Barren Lands may end up like Silverlode; a personal fiefdom of the Cadet branch of the House of Ahrmahk; the Ahrmahk-Daykyn line. The thought of getting paid Charisian wages in Charisian marks, taught to use Charisian machinery in new colonies offering land protected by the Imperial Charisian Navy and Imperial Charisian Army, living under Charisian law safeguarding personal liberties including how they worship are all attractive features for poverty stricken residents of those nations. The enterprise would be presented as the continued sanctification of Safehold as God commanded in the Writ.

I would hope to see thriving colonies in the Barren Lands and Green Tree Island when next we visit Safehold. Am I off base?
Top
Re: The Barren Lands
Post by n7axw   » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:10 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Why are the Barren Lands called barren? The answer to that question would seem to provide a hint as to how viable your proposal might be. Also, has anybody claimed the Barren lands? That question is like the first. If real estate is regarded useless, the operative question is why?

If on the other hand terra forming could make it habitable and a desirable place to live, maybe your idea could work.

Ps. Do we have any hints about scheduling on the next book?

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: The Barren Lands
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:42 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5704
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

The only one is that David mentioned he was working on the next Safehold book after uncompromising Honor. I hope he finishes it soon.

As for the bareness of the land, Green tree Island near by is rather lush. I suspect there is mineral wealth to be had in the area. If the interior lake is between two mountain ranges, the transportation potential makes developing those resources rather attractive. Doing all that with manpower siphoned from the poverty stricken or oppressive regions of Howard is icing on the cake.
n7axw wrote:Why are the Barren Lands called barren? The answer to that question would seem to provide a hint as to how viable your proposal might be. Also, has anybody claimed the Barren lands? That question is like the first. If real estate is regarded useless, the operative question is why?

If on the other hand terra forming could make it habitable and a desirable place to live, maybe your idea could work.

Ps. Do we have any hints about scheduling on the next book?

Don

-
Top
Re: The Barren Lands
Post by thanatos   » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:36 pm

thanatos
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:29 pm
Location: United States

PeterZ wrote:The only one is that David mentioned he was working on the next Safehold book after uncompromising Honor. I hope he finishes it soon.

As for the bareness of the land, Green tree Island near by is rather lush. I suspect there is mineral wealth to be had in the area. If the interior lake is between two mountain ranges, the transportation potential makes developing those resources rather attractive. Doing all that with manpower siphoned from the poverty stricken or oppressive regions of Howard is icing on the cake.
n7axw wrote:Why are the Barren Lands called barren? The answer to that question would seem to provide a hint as to how viable your proposal might be. Also, has anybody claimed the Barren lands? That question is like the first. If real estate is regarded useless, the operative question is why?

If on the other hand terra forming could make it habitable and a desirable place to live, maybe your idea could work.

Ps. Do we have any hints about scheduling on the next book?

Don

-


Like Trellheim, I think the Barren Lands are probably underpopulated and sparse in resources. Indeed, it's entirely possible the entire island / subcontinent is in fact a giant desert with little by way of water. Remember that the original colonization spread out from the original enclaves and that it was in the interest of the "Archangels" and later the Church, to spread out over the entire planet of Safehold wherever possible for one, very simple reason. If a ship carrying male and female passengers was shipwrecked only a viable landmass that could be terraformed but that were they did not have the resources to repair the ship or build a new one that would survive blue waters, that enclave would be effectively cut off from the Church and its religious and political control.

You would have a very real schism that would be created naturally, with whatever clergymen they had on the original boat ordaining their own successors with zero input from Zion. It's the reason the Church distrusted all the island realms that were outside of their direct control via semaphore. And the only reason Armageddon Reef remained unpopulated was because the "Archangels" declared it tainted. And it was only the superstitious fears of the common, unlettered and uneducated Safeholdians that kept potential settlers far away, lest they be shipwrecked on the southern continent and cut off from the world. So no, I think that after close to a millennium of colonization, and after Pei Shan-wei provided detailed and (mostly) accurate analyses of potential resources to found found around the planet, the Barren Lands have remained barren this long for a reason. And given that aren't more than a name on the map, I would guess that they're even less significant than Trellheim.
Top
Re: The Barren Lands
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:17 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5704
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Thanatos, I posit Utah and Australia as counter examples to your pist. Utah was a lifeless dessert befor Mormon settles brought it to life. Australia is largely dessert without the central lake of the Barren Lands. Because Australia is not mountainous its doesn't have the same exposure to the planet's interior as other nation. That isn't necessarily trus of the Barren Lands. If the core IS mountainous, there is mineral exposure in the mountains. Even if the central lake is saline, the transportation potential between two exposed planetary cores would be VERY attractive. If there are no mountains, then the idea would be worthless unless land area elsewhere becomes too expensive.
Top
Re: The Barren Lands
Post by n7axw   » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:02 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5100
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

PeterZ wrote:Thanatos, I posit Utah and Australia as counter examples to your pist. Utah was a lifeless dessert befor Mormon settles brought it to life. Australia is largely dessert without the central lake of the Barren Lands. Because Australia is not mountainous its doesn't have the same exposure to the planet's interior as other nation. That isn't necessarily trus of the Barren Lands. If the core IS mountainous, there is mineral exposure in the mountains. Even if the central lake is saline, the transportation potential between two exposed planetary cores would be VERY attractive. If there are no mountains, then the idea would be worthless unless land area elsewhere becomes too expensive.


You might be right. But most of the population of Australia isn't in the desert. And, the actual percentage of Utah that has been actually "terraformed" is quite small. Still, small settlements on the Batren lands that make provision for the difficulties might survive. What is probably not workable is the notion of settling large numbers of people there in a short period of time.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: The Barren Lands
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:40 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5704
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Indeed so, Don. The population in the Baren Lands won't be very large by the time the next story arc commences. The existence of such a large freshwater lake at its center does suggest a potential to support a much larger population. Even a saltwater lake protected as it is from truly bad weather would support a sizable population.

The idea would be worthwhile if there was mineral wealth to be exploited in the region. Setting up an agricultural colony would be more worthwhile close to the Empire until Corisande is more densely populated. Siphoning off from the population of serfs and slaves in Howard and Haven as well as their poverty stricken nations is an addition benefit. Giving the EoC a vested interest in the region to safeguard Green Tree Island is another benefit.

Lastly, having a very secure naval base in the region would be an added benefit. All the other islands in the Gulf that will likely have bases can't be made as secure as a colony on the Baren Lands. The colony's prosperity would be primary line of defense. Having mineral wealth to exploit would be key to attracting investment. Future economic and population growth can build on that resource extraction base.

n7axw wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Thanatos, I posit Utah and Australia as counter examples to your pist. Utah was a lifeless dessert befor Mormon settles brought it to life. Australia is largely dessert without the central lake of the Barren Lands. Because Australia is not mountainous its doesn't have the same exposure to the planet's interior as other nation. That isn't necessarily trus of the Barren Lands. If the core IS mountainous, there is mineral exposure in the mountains. Even if the central lake is saline, the transportation potential between two exposed planetary cores would be VERY attractive. If there are no mountains, then the idea would be worthless unless land area elsewhere becomes too expensive.


You might be right. But most of the population of Australia isn't in the desert. And, the actual percentage of Utah that has been actually "terraformed" is quite small. Still, small settlements on the Batren lands that make provision for the difficulties might survive. What is probably not workable is the notion of settling large numbers of people there in a short period of time.

Don

-
Top
Re: The Barren Lands
Post by thanatos   » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:37 am

thanatos
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:29 pm
Location: United States

A lot of what you say relies upon assumptions not backed by textev. The only textev we have is the name of the place, what we know about Shan-wei terraforming expedition (resources she discovered) and the fact that the Barren Lands are even less of a blip on the radar than Trellheim.

You assume that the islands have potable water. You assume that there are good anchorages around the islands for a naval base. You assume that one could bring enough stored water and enough agricultural resources could be shipped there to give any potential colonists the time to set up a sustainable colony. Utah had the benefit of still being attached by land to more habitable parts of the country, with the possibility of food, livestock and water being transported in (especially with the advent of the railroad). Australia had a small native population that managed to find ways to gather the food and water they needed in order to survive (and the Europeans that came later could build upon that).
Top
Re: The Barren Lands
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:52 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5704
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

We have text that the wind does bow from East to West often enough to allow sailing ships to navigate the Great Western Ocean, it follows that water ladened winds will rain on the island. The map shows inland lakes. Presumably lakes formed fromed at least partially from rains. We also know Green Tree Island is lush with vegetation. That argues a ego all ecology that includes water.

So even if text has't explicitly stated the area is habitable, text does provides clues that the area is habitable. We'll see if the region plays a part in the story. I suspect it will.

Btw, there already is a port city in the Barren Lands; Taylar on Zhasyn Bay. That's one of three anchorages along the Northern coast and another one along te Southern coast.
Top
Re: The Barren Lands
Post by phillies   » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:01 pm

phillies
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1770
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:43 am
Location: Worcester, MA

If there is a large lake, not an ocean inlet, there are considerable rains. If there were no rains, the lake would evaporate. If the water is fresh, the lake has an outlet to the ocean, a river. If there were no outlet, it would be like the dead sea...salty.

PeterZ wrote:We have text that the wind does bow from East to West often enough to allow sailing ships to navigate the Great Western Ocean, it follows that water ladened winds will rain on the island. The map shows inland lakes. Presumably lakes formed fromed at least partially from rains. We also know Green Tree Island is lush with vegetation. That argues a ego all ecology that includes water.

So even if text has't explicitly stated the area is habitable, text does provides clues that the area is habitable. We'll see if the region plays a part in the story. I suspect it will.

Btw, there already is a port city in the Barren Lands; Taylar on Zhasyn Bay. That's one of three anchorages along the Northern coast and another one along te Southern coast.
Top

Return to Safehold