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King Haalahd VII's design

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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:01 pm

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doug941 wrote:
Could be but I doubt a KG5 would be followed by an Iron Duke since the second was mostly an evolved version of the first. If that era is represented, I'd guess more likely to be one of the American Nevada era designs. Same number of guns(or more)without using a Q turret.
As for cruisers, I could see a Warrior class analog with single caliber main guns and/or a smaller version of the Hawkins class. The destroyer analog could be used more as a dispatch vessel and/or a coast guard cutter later on.


Cruisers are likely designed along more economical guidelines.
I can see the Omaha class CL next then followed by the St. Louis class.

The DDs will likely start witht he Clemsen class and then move to the Porter class.

The ICN will likely shift between CLs and DDs in their progression. I suspect they will stick to the CLs because the DDs would be optimized for turbines and electricity. The CLs can still use triple expansion engines with oil burning boilers. They are big enough ships.

DDs with reciprocating engines will be really short legged and good for coastal defense only.

As for BBs, yeah, I can see Nevada following the Audacious.

The big issue is how to power those big turrets. Comressed air and hydrolics will work. The combination of optics and the balloons will really maximize the range for the big guns. Combining better steal and tripple based propellant will really be tough for other nations to duplicate.

So by the next time we see Safehold, we will see the ICN with between 20-30 BBs, 60-80 CLs and 200-300 DDs cruising the coast of the Empire and the Gulf of Dohlar. Dohlar and South Harchong will have a similar number between them.

What sort of fire control computers will they develope, I wonder?
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by doug941   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:11 am

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PeterZ wrote:
doug941 wrote:
Could be but I doubt a KG5 would be followed by an Iron Duke since the second was mostly an evolved version of the first. If that era is represented, I'd guess more likely to be one of the American Nevada era designs. Same number of guns(or more)without using a Q turret.
As for cruisers, I could see a Warrior class analog with single caliber main guns and/or a smaller version of the Hawkins class. The destroyer analog could be used more as a dispatch vessel and/or a coast guard cutter later on.


Cruisers are likely designed along more economical guidelines.
I can see the Omaha class CL next then followed by the St. Louis class.

The DDs will likely start witht he Clemsen class and then move to the Porter class.

The ICN will likely shift between CLs and DDs in their progression. I suspect they will stick to the CLs because the DDs would be optimized for turbines and electricity. The CLs can still use triple expansion engines with oil burning boilers. They are big enough ships.

DDs with reciprocating engines will be really short legged and good for coastal defense only.

As for BBs, yeah, I can see Nevada following the Audacious.

The big issue is how to power those big turrets. Comressed air and hydrolics will work. The combination of optics and the balloons will really maximize the range for the big guns. Combining better steal and tripple based propellant will really be tough for other nations to duplicate.

So by the next time we see Safehold, we will see the ICN with between 20-30 BBs, 60-80 CLs and 200-300 DDs cruising the coast of the Empire and the Gulf of Dohlar. Dohlar and South Harchong will have a similar number between them.

What sort of fire control computers will they develope, I wonder?


I can't find info for US triple ex DDs, but the RN's River class was roughly half the size of a Clemson, and had ranges of approx 1600-1800 miles with 25.5 kts. Clemson ranged to 4900 miles.

The turrets on a battleship wouldn't need Nevada's 18" face armor so the weight wouldn't be as bad as you think. And turning it would be able to use Civil War tech, ie steam donkey engines.

Fire control during WW2 used mechanical computers, some had electric motors. Non-electric versions would be possible.

Lastly, the fleet Charis needs is not a RN style battleline. The Haarahld's were more tech demonstrators than weapons. What they will need is commerce protection in the style of the RN's protected cruisers. Using a Haarahld against a Harchong pirate would be like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:54 am

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You are not thinking about spreading the tech enough. I can see CLs as the primary commerce protection units for convoys or for patrioling the Western Ocean. I can see DDs patrolling between Tarot and Silkiah, in the Gulf of Dohlar and between the Imperial Islands. They are sufficient for commerce protection.

The battleships continue to be the technology demonstrators. They have to be because Charis has to help Dohlar, Siddermark and South Harchong build their own steam ships. That means the best of these competitors will be less than 1 generation behind the ICN. If Charis doesn't push naval designs forward, the rest of Safehold won't have any incentive to drive technological advancement as fast as possible or spread it as widely.

Those BBs will keep the Harchongese and the Dohlarans pushing to keep Charis within spitting distance. Siddermark will focus primarily on their army and trains. I would surprised if they did not have a modest navy also. So long as ICN battleships are armed with the most powerful guns in the world, no port city is safe. So long as ONLY the ICN has ships with such guns, the Empire of Charis need fear nothing. That absence of fear means other nations have one less bargaining chip in any diplomatic negotiations with the EoC. Building 6-8 battleships in each generation seems sufficient to encourage further development and scare the crap out of anyone even thinking of fighting the ICN.

By the time the Return happens, steam and technological development will have been spread wide and sunk deep into Safeholdians society.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:27 am

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PeterZ wrote:. So long as ICN battleships are armed with the most powerful guns in the world, no port city is safe. So long as ONLY the ICN has ships with such guns, the Empire of Charis need fear nothing. .


And then someone figured out how to build a proper self-propelled torpedo... ;)

P.S. British Empire have most powerfull battleships in the world by 1914. Then came Peter Strasser, and British Empire suddenly found that all power of her navy could not stop those flimsy gasbags with fragile alumunium frames from coming over sea and killing british peoples. The Britain survived, and won the war. But one thing that was completely lost in 1915 - and never recovered - was the feeling of being invunerable.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:01 am

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Dilandu wrote:
PeterZ wrote:. So long as ICN battleships are armed with the most powerful guns in the world, no port city is safe. So long as ONLY the ICN has ships with such guns, the Empire of Charis need fear nothing. .


And then someone figured out how to build a proper self-propelled torpedo... ;)

P.S. British Empire have most powerfull battleships in the world by 1914. Then came Peter Strasser, and British Empire suddenly found that all power of her navy could not stop those flimsy gasbags with fragile alumunium frames from coming over sea and killing british peoples. The Britain survived, and won the war. But one thing that was completely lost in 1915 - and never recovered - was the feeling of being invunerable.

Yeah, derigibles will be a unique challenge. I suspect the Inner Circle is already thing of hoe to build one and how to counter one.

Torpedoes launched from fast destroyers will also make life interesting for the ICN. Again they'll get there first and begin trying to counter that system.

Fun reading ahead!
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:20 am

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PeterZ wrote:
Torpedoes launched from fast destroyers will also make life interesting for the ICN. Again they'll get there first and begin trying to counter that system.

Fun reading ahead!


Unless, of course, Merlin made a mistake and underestimated Jeune Ecole. Charis already showed signs of that, by refusing to create coastal navy & trying to use seagoing battleships for the operations, for which they aren't suited.

Lets not forget, that neither Merlin nor Owl have any actual experience in NAVAL warfare. They only have historical analogues, but the problem with them - history not always repeat themselves. Jeune Ecole is generally considered as a faliure, but it pushed the warship development & naval tactics fast-forward, led to re-evaluations of naval warfare. And in the situtation, when one side is "pre-dogmatic" - i.e. automatically assumed that "if it was historically right, then it WAS right" - the other may actually make a good surprize simply by not having pre-knowlege.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:13 am

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Dilandu wrote:
PeterZ wrote:
Torpedoes launched from fast destroyers will also make life interesting for the ICN. Again they'll get there first and begin trying to counter that system.

Fun reading ahead!


Unless, of course, Merlin made a mistake and underestimated Jeune Ecole. Charis already showed signs of that, by refusing to create coastal navy & trying to use seagoing battleships for the operations, for which they aren't suited.

Lets not forget, that neither Merlin nor Owl have any actual experience in NAVAL warfare. They only have historical analogues, but the problem with them - history not always repeat themselves. Jeune Ecole is generally considered as a faliure, but it pushed the warship development & naval tactics fast-forward, led to re-evaluations of naval warfare. And in the situtation, when one side is "pre-dogmatic" - i.e. automatically assumed that "if it was historically right, then it WAS right" - the other may actually make a good surprize simply by not having pre-knowlege.


Agreed. I think that's why RFC has Baron Seamount outside the Inner Circle. His entire brain trust is outside the Inner Circle. Even though the IC is directing technology to grow in certain directions, Seamount is viewing his options with fresh eyes untainted by knowledge of advanced tech development on Earth. He acts as a check on the entire assumption that knowhing how Earth progressed means they will know how Safehold should progress.

I have to say that their tech will run into serious obstacles right about now. Absent eelectricity, there are entire phases of technological development that are denied to Safehold. Where will they take their development?

Case in point is the limitations on the IC engine. The power to weight of early diesel engines made their use in airplanes suboptimal compared to gasoline or jet engines. Even if limited utility allows for slower airplanes, they can counter dirigibles. Diesel powered planes will be larger and have much lower performance compared to gasoline fueled engines. They are still viable propositions.

That is unless it is possible to make jets/turbo props without electricity. Re-starting en engine in flight may not be possible, but can it even get started with assistance groundside? Can an ignition system be created witout electricity? Will using chemical agents work as igniters? I have no clue what is possible in that direction.

So it looks like we have dirigibles powered by diesel engines. large and relatively slow airplanes also powered by diesel. I suspect that diesel is preferable to steam for dirigibles just to avoid using open flames, but that may or may not be the case.

I truely want to read about Paityr's logic chop to argue for allowing diesel. My view has been that diesel engines work similarly to guns. Some substance ignites in an anclosed chamber and moves a projectile. The primary difference is that in the engine the projectile is connected to a crank; a crank much like the crank galleys of the RDN used. The only truly novel thing abut diesel is the piston rod that connects the cylinder's projectile, piston, to the crank shaft. The fuel is already used in steam engines. So the entire concept uses existing technology that's combined in a novel way. That sort of thing hardly needs a new attestation, it can be used from the previously attested processes.

Diesel powered Destroyers will be interesting.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:06 pm

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I wonder if hydrogen peroxide can be used to ignite other fuels in a pulse jet design? Heck I wonder if it can be used as an igniter in an internal combustion engine? The latter is less needed since diesel is already viable. The former would make high performance planes viable.

I am curious.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by saber964   » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:53 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I wonder if hydrogen peroxide can be used to ignite other fuels in a pulse jet design? Heck I wonder if it can be used as an igniter in an internal combustion engine? The latter is less needed since diesel is already viable. The former would make high performance planes viable.

I am curious.



The big problem with peroxide is in concentrations above 30% it becomes corrosive which was one of the main problems with the Me 163 Komet
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by WeberFan   » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:19 pm

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BIG HUGE SNIP... (Emphasis mine)
PeterZ wrote:That is unless it is possible to make jets/turbo props without electricity. Re-starting en engine in flight may not be possible, but can it even get started with assistance groundside? Can an ignition system be created witout electricity? Will using chemical agents work as igniters? I have no clue what is possible in that direction.


Yep...It's possible.

Speaking as an aerospace engineer now...

A lot of what goes on in turbojet engines is mechanically driven once the motor is started. So, when you're getting ready to start it on the ground, you need a way to rotate the engine, which will then drive all the accessories (like the hydraulic pumps and - the one I was really thinking of - the fuel pump). The fuel pump delivers high-pressure fuel to the burner cans. The fuel injectors vaporize the fuel and allow it to mix with the combustion air being drawn through the engine intake and compressed. So now you have a highly-combustible fuel-air mixture in the burner cans.

The final step is ignition. While an electrical / spark ignitor is the most common, you could also use a "shotgun shell" ignitor (common with earlier piston engines and diesels). Once it's going, it'll keep going so long as you have a continuous supply of air and fuel.

As to restarting a motor in the air (and assuming you've "got some sky underneath you"), you can nose over to get enough airspeed so you have ram air up the intake to spin the motor (and thus drive all the accessories like the fule pump). Another shotgun shell ignitor and voila.
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