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King Haalahd VII's design

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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by Silverwall   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:26 am

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n7axw wrote:
William Underhill wrote:Re: aircraft gas turbine engines, and ignition thereof, a couple of questions occur to me:

1) would an induction sparker violate the Proscriptions? Probably, I'm thinking, though it wouldn't be much of an electrical system - just a coil moving through a magnet, going to electrodes in the burner can(s). I'm wondering if magnets (or lodestones) are known on Safehold?

2) alternatively to an induction sparker, is it possible to have a fairly robust (i.e., high-temperature tolerant) flint-type striker mounted in the burner can(s)? Or some sort of mechanical arrangement to move one into the can for ignition, then out again afterwards?

3) as an alternative to a sparker, is it possible to build a high enough compression in a turbine for self-ignition? Maybe with the addition of plates that block gas flow out of the burner cans until ignition occurs? Basically, I'm wondering if an analogue to the diesel engine is possible in a turbine.

This all presumes, of course, that the basic notion of an internal combustion engine, whether reciprocating or rotating, gets introduced. Personally I'm inclined in favour of turbine engines; they're mechanically simpler than reciprocating and can run on a wider range of combustible fuels. I don't recall RFC dropping any hints as to whether petroleum deposits exist, but the existence of coal implies (to me, anyway) that they do.


Yes. There are references to petroleum deposits. I don't have references at my fingertips and am too lazy to hunt them down right now. But they are there.

I don't see any valid reason why a turbine engine couldn't be diesel. But then again, I'm not an engineer!

Don

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FYI a deisel turbine is called a jet engine...

As has been discussed before the biggest issue with gas turbines/jets is metalurgy when you can't refine critical additives such as Tungsten et-al. Without very precise machining abilities and advanced alloys traditional Deisels and petrol engines are much easier to build. Finally igniting a jet turbine without electricity will be VERY difficult and will require explosive charges like blank shotgun shells.

Flint igniters would wear out way to fast and I am sure that induction/static electricity ignition would violate the proscriptions.

Compression ignition deisels are very doable, in fact it is pretty much the definition of a Deisel. Glow plugs are only necesary in modern high performance engines.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by Joat42   » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:12 am

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Regarding IC engines. You have the hot-bulb engine which is much easier to manufacture than a diesel engine and entirely doable at the current tech-level.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by dobriennm   » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:24 am

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Joat42 wrote:Regarding IC engines. You have the hot-bulb engine which is much easier to manufacture than a diesel engine and entirely doable at the current tech-level.


Looking at the hot-bulb engine, It really looks like something the Temple Lands/Harchongians/Desnairians could build even at their lower level of tech. It would be perfect for agriculture (tractors) and self-propelled canal boats. Of course, they would also have to develop an oil industry, but even that could be lower tech than Charis since the engine could run on so many different fuels.

This could be another case where Merlin tries to force the other side to develop something needing higher tech and the other side going a low tech but highly effective route (i.e., like breech loading rifles).

Good reference, Joat42. Hopefully, the Author will see this and use it in the next series.

From the article
"The reliability of the hot bulb engine, their ability to run on many fuels and the fact that they can be left running for hours or days at a time made them extremely popular with agricultural, forestry and marine users, where they were used for pumping and for powering milling, sawing and threshing machinery. Hot bulb engines were also used on road rollers and tractors."

Hot-bulb engines were built by a large number of manufacturers, usually in modest series. These engines were slow-running (300-400 rpm) and mostly with cast-iron parts, including pistons. The fuel pump was usually made with a brass housing and steel plunger, operating with a variable stroke length. This resulted in a simple, rugged heavy engine. Therefore, they could be machined in an average machine shop without special tools
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by Joat42   » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:57 pm

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dobriennm wrote:
Joat42 wrote:Regarding IC engines. You have the hot-bulb engine which is much easier to manufacture than a diesel engine and entirely doable at the current tech-level.


Looking at the hot-bulb engine, It really looks like something the Temple Lands/Harchongians/Desnairians could build even at their lower level of tech. It would be perfect for agriculture (tractors) and self-propelled canal boats. Of course, they would also have to develop an oil industry, but even that could be lower tech than Charis since the engine could run on so many different fuels.

This could be another case where Merlin tries to force the other side to develop something needing higher tech and the other side going a low tech but highly effective route (i.e., like breech loading rifles).

Good reference, Joat42. Hopefully, the Author will see this and use it in the next series.

From the article
"The reliability of the hot bulb engine, their ability to run on many fuels and the fact that they can be left running for hours or days at a time made them extremely popular with agricultural, forestry and marine users, where they were used for pumping and for powering milling, sawing and threshing machinery. Hot bulb engines were also used on road rollers and tractors."

Hot-bulb engines were built by a large number of manufacturers, usually in modest series. These engines were slow-running (300-400 rpm) and mostly with cast-iron parts, including pistons. The fuel pump was usually made with a brass housing and steel plunger, operating with a variable stroke length. This resulted in a simple, rugged heavy engine. Therefore, they could be machined in an average machine shop without special tools

I used to do volunteer work on a small tug during my summer breaks. We'd putter around and replace batteries and light bulbs on navigational markers. The tug had a hot-bulb engine and you could quick reverse it by timing the use of the throttle instead of using the reversing gear.

To get the engine running you'd use a blowtorch to heat the bulb and then pull a strap you had wound around the flywheel. The engine could backfire on startup and it would flay your hands if you didn't use gloves.

Fun times..

Here's some pictures of the tug: Lord Manfred

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by n7axw   » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:44 pm

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Thanks for the note on the tug boats. I know that you can order the hotbulb engines currently, but is there any place now where they are commonly used?

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by Joat42   » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:53 am

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n7axw wrote:Thanks for the note on the tug boats. I know that you can order the hotbulb engines currently, but is there any place now where they are commonly used?

Don

-

Not what I'm aware of. The only ones I have run into has been on "vintage" boats.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by EdThomas   » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:50 am

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Joat42 wrote:
dobriennm wrote:
Here's some pictures of the tug: Lord Manfred

Got a google translation of the swedish text when I went to look at the pictures. Cool! :D
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by EdThomas   » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:47 am

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Question. My impression is bulb engines are not all that powerful. Would it be strong enough for pushing/pulling other larger boats around? Gearing?
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:35 am

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Hi Joat42,

Thanks for the update and reference!

I saw hot bulb engines working when I was a kid, a few decades back, but really didn't appreciate their utility and advantages, but from the wiki article and links they were extremely useful in their day [one German firm alone made nearly a quarter million 25-55 HP farm tractors over 4 decades] and seem almost tailor made for Safehold, to do work that is too little generally for a dragon (though some well designed Hot bulbs did 50-70 hp for decades) but too great and monotonous for even a half dozen men and too awkward for 2-3 horses or even a dozen, for hours without supervision.

Farmers, miners, fishermen and small businessmen would go wild for this access to cheap liberating power!

They are simple enough to make, even out of iron, and easy to maintain, were very multi-fuel, ie crude to vegetable oil; and were often used to provide local electric power generation before national grids, so they could help make that broad leap for the vast rural masses at the appropriate time.

They weren't replaced in our day until small very powerful diesel engines were invented and available in the 1950-60's.

There are some precursor steps required however, involving 4 and 2 stroke IC engine cycles being understood and then built to provide a background in manufacture at least, performed by the Imperial College then the industrialists, which will take some time; that is unless RFC has figured how to put the cart before the horse, which isn't impossible by any means. ;)

I can see Howsmyn offering the first ten thousand to farmers small mine owners, ranchers, sawmills, etc for pumps, cutting crushing, stirring and agitating, all the drudge work fork lots of people; leasing them all across the empire, rather than selling them to get feedback on all the ways to use them in different climates and jobs, before producing them by the million.

Its been said that the horse collar largely ended slavery in Western Europe, though not other places where it was known, but the Hot Bulb engine could dramatically reduce the amount of farm and hand labor required across Safehold.

It could dramatically change the lives of the vast farming majority which has yet to be touched by the industrial age Merlin has begun, and accomplish an amazing amount without electricity rather quickly, before the visit by the archangels, who would find it far more impossible to reinstate the proscriptions when a billion people understand and use the IC principles every day, without killing almost all of the adults.

This access to very cheap power would reinforce the emancipation of serfs in the rest of the Empire of Charis, as well as Siddarmark and Dohlar.

Hot Bulb engines are very easy tech to steal and copy, so what happens when Hot Bulb engines start to become widespread in Desnair and Northern Harchong, just to try to compete with far lower cost products from Charis, Siddarmark and Dohlar, the Temple Lands [and Southern Harchong] etc?

What happens when Hot Bulb engines are cheaper than serfs?

Very interesting times people, very interesting times.

Time to go!

L


Joat42 wrote:Regarding IC engines. You have the hot-bulb engine which is much easier to manufacture than a diesel engine and entirely doable at the current tech-level.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by n7axw   » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:16 pm

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I read the Wiki article. But what I find myself wondering is what the upper limits would be on hp and what would prevent power limits from being driven up further.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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