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King Haalahd VII's design

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King Haalahd VII's design
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:28 am

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Does anyone know if RFC used the Majestic class pre-dreadnought battleships as the emplacement for the final design of the KH VIIs? I was looking at comparable ships and the original Majestics like the HMS Mars struck me as extremely similar. The Mars has 4 12 inch guns in twin barbette mounts and 12 6 inch guns. Mars had an amour belt of 9 inches and was powered by 2 3 piston expansion engines. The dimensions are very similar; 421 feet at the water line and a been of 73 feet.

I believe the Majestics were all steel construction rather than the KH VII's composit construction. I can't seem to find the text of the KH's armor. Does anyone know if it is 6 inches or was it thicker?
Last edited by PeterZ on Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: King Haalahd ViI's design
Post by Morden   » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:31 am

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Possibly, but the Mars seems a bit bigger/more heavily armed as its got 12inch guns on it I think? 305mm at any rate. I pictured it more like the armored cruiser USS South Dakota (ACR-9)

I think the KH8's are a bit too low on the calibre scale to be considered even pre-dreadnoughts. But looks wise the Mars does look very nice tbh.
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Re: King Haalahd ViI's design
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:07 am

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The KH7s dimensions are closer to HMS Mars' than the ACR USNS South Dakota. ACR-9 has another 70 feet of length and has 7 feet narrower beam. The biggest visual difference is the sharply raked prow of the KH7. ACR-9 has a prow that angles back rather than rakes forward sharply.

The displacement difference is a function of the armor belt, I think. 3 inches less armor along that entire length adds up. Again, I can't find text on the KH7's armor belt. I believe it is 6 inches.

Below are links to their images.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_South_Dakota_(ACR-9)#/media/File:USSSouthDakotaACR9.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Mars_(1896)#/media/File:HMS_Mars_LOC_ggbain_16923.jpg

The three classes of pre-dreadnoughts that just preceded Dreadnought, all have remarkably similar dimensions to the KH7s. They all had heavier guns and armor and did not have the forward raked prow. Also, they all carried two masts rather than the single mast of the KH7s.
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Re: King Haalahd ViI's design
Post by doug941   » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:39 pm

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Morden wrote:Possibly, but the Mars seems a bit bigger/more heavily armed as its got 12inch guns on it I think? 305mm at any rate. I pictured it more like the armored cruiser USS South Dakota (ACR-9)

I think the KH8's are a bit too low on the calibre scale to be considered even pre-dreadnoughts. But looks wise the Mars does look very nice tbh.


In regards to your statement of pre-dreadnought guns. The Royal Navy had two classes armed with 10" guns: the Swiftsure class of 1904 and the Renown of 1895. Early German and Austro-Hungarian battleships were armed with 9.4"(24cm) guns as well as a number of "Third World" battleships.
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Re: King Haalahd ViI's design
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:02 pm

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Morden wrote:Possibly, but the Mars seems a bit bigger/more heavily armed as its got 12inch guns on it I think? 305mm at any rate. I pictured it more like the armored cruiser USS South Dakota (ACR-9)

I think the KH8's are a bit too low on the calibre scale to be considered even pre-dreadnoughts. But looks wise the Mars does look very nice tbh.
doug941 wrote:In regards to your statement of pre-dreadnought guns. The Royal Navy had two classes armed with 10" guns: the Swiftsure class of 1904 and the Renown of 1895. Early German and Austro-Hungarian battleships were armed with 9.4"(24cm) guns as well as a number of "Third World" battleships.

The Centurions were beamier than the Majestics. They were also shorter than either the Majestics or the KH7s. As a result they ran slower by 2-3 mph.

Truly, the best comparison is an under-gunned and under armored Majestic.
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Re: King Haalahd ViI's design
Post by doug941   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:23 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Morden wrote:Possibly, but the Mars seems a bit bigger/more heavily armed as its got 12inch guns on it I think? 305mm at any rate. I pictured it more like the armored cruiser USS South Dakota (ACR-9)

I think the KH8's are a bit too low on the calibre scale to be considered even pre-dreadnoughts. But looks wise the Mars does look very nice tbh.
doug941 wrote:In regards to your statement of pre-dreadnought guns. The Royal Navy had two classes armed with 10" guns: the Swiftsure class of 1904 and the Renown of 1895. Early German and Austro-Hungarian battleships were armed with 9.4"(24cm) guns as well as a number of "Third World" battleships.

The Centurions were beamier than the Majestics. They were also shorter than either the Majestics or the KH7s. As a result they ran slower by 2-3 mph.

Truly, the best comparison is an under-gunned and under armored Majestic.


Good catch, I'd forgotten the Centurions. As far as the beam are concerned, the Centurions are smaller in absolute terms, but are larger in proportion. Majestics were 421 X 75, Centurions were 390 X 70, Swiftsures were 475.25 X 71 and Renown was 412.25 X 72.33.
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Re: King Haalahd ViI's design
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:20 pm

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Morden wrote:Possibly, but the Mars seems a bit bigger/more heavily armed as its got 12inch guns on it I think? 305mm at any rate. I pictured it more like the armored cruiser USS South Dakota (ACR-9)

I think the KH8's are a bit too low on the calibre scale to be considered even pre-dreadnoughts. But looks wise the Mars does look very nice tbh.
doug941 wrote:In regards to your statement of pre-dreadnought guns. The Royal Navy had two classes armed with 10" guns: the Swiftsure class of 1904 and the Renown of 1895. Early German and Austro-Hungarian battleships were armed with 9.4"(24cm) guns as well as a number of "Third World" battleships.
PeterZ wrote:The Centurions were beamier than the Majestics. They were also shorter than either the Majestics or the KH7s. As a result they ran slower by 2-3 mph.

Truly, the best comparison is an under-gunned and under armored Majestic.
doug941 wrote:Good catch, I'd forgotten the Centurions. As far as the beam are concerned, the Centurions are smaller in absolute terms, but are larger in proportion. Majestics were 421 X 75, Centurions were 390 X 70, Swiftsures were 475.25 X 71 and Renown was 412.25 X 72.33.
Bottom line is that the redesigns of the KH7s resulted in a shift from an armored cruiser to a pre-Dreadnought battleship.

When next we visit Safehold, I suspect we will see a primarily large gun platform in excess of 50,000 tons displacement. The idea is not to design the most economical ship as much as continue presenting technological reasons to more deeply embrace tehnological change. The progression after the KH7s will be an all steel design in the 20,000 ton range with each generation growing bigger as other nations match the ICN.

I wonder how close the Montana RFC will get?
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Re: King Haalahd ViI's design
Post by doug941   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:22 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Morden wrote:Possibly, but the Mars seems a bit bigger/more heavily armed as its got 12inch guns on it I think? 305mm at any rate. I pictured it more like the armored cruiser USS South Dakota (ACR-9)

I think the KH8's are a bit too low on the calibre scale to be considered even pre-dreadnoughts. But looks wise the Mars does look very nice tbh.
doug941 wrote:In regards to your statement of pre-dreadnought guns. The Royal Navy had two classes armed with 10" guns: the Swiftsure class of 1904 and the Renown of 1895. Early German and Austro-Hungarian battleships were armed with 9.4"(24cm) guns as well as a number of "Third World" battleships.
PeterZ wrote:The Centurions were beamier than the Majestics. They were also shorter than either the Majestics or the KH7s. As a result they ran slower by 2-3 mph.

Truly, the best comparison is an under-gunned and under armored Majestic.
doug941 wrote:Good catch, I'd forgotten the Centurions. As far as the beam are concerned, the Centurions are smaller in absolute terms, but are larger in proportion. Majestics were 421 X 75, Centurions were 390 X 70, Swiftsures were 475.25 X 71 and Renown was 412.25 X 72.33.
Bottom line is that the redesigns of the KH7s resulted in a shift from an armored cruiser to a pre-Dreadnought battleship.

When next we visit Safehold, I suspect we will see a primarily large gun platform in excess of 50,000 tons displacement. The idea is not to design the most economical ship as much as continue presenting technological reasons to more deeply embrace tehnological change. The progression after the KH7s will be an all steel design in the 20,000 ton range with each generation growing bigger as other nations match the ICN.

I wonder how close the Montana RFC will get?


So what do you think for the first post-Haarahld class, Dreadnought, Kawachi or Michigan?
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:48 pm

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Neither. HMS Audacious is enough of a jump to force Safehold to stretch.
Next is Emporer of India
Then UNS Iowa
Finally, they will be launching the Montana when we rejoin Safehold.

I suspect they build between 4-6 of each class. The truly interesting design choices will be their cruisers. I doubt the ICN will opt for CAs and BCs. What sorts of CLs and DDs will it deploy?
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by doug941   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:07 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Neither. HMS Audacious is enough of a jump to force Safehold to stretch.
Next is Emporer of India
Then UNS Iowa
Finally, they will be launching the Montana when we rejoin Safehold.

I suspect they build between 4-6 of each class. The truly interesting design choices will be their cruisers. I doubt the ICN will opt for CAs and BCs. What sorts of CLs and DDs will it deploy?


Could be but I doubt a KG5 would be followed by an Iron Duke since the second was mostly an evolved version of the first. If that era is represented, I'd guess more likely to be one of the American Nevada era designs. Same number of guns(or more)without using a Q turret.
As for cruisers, I could see a Warrior class analog with single caliber main guns and/or a smaller version of the Hawkins class. The destroyer analog could be used more as a dispatch vessel and/or a coast guard cutter later on.
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