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King Haalahd VII's design

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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by emeye   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:32 pm

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Germans have flown diesel powered prop planes since 1930's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_205

Apparently, not sufficiently reliable for high power combat, but more than adequate for other aeronautic uses.

Regarding tanks, compressed air started diesels were a mainstay since at least T56.

Neither of the above used electricity for operation; merely to warm up their glow plugs, almost as easily achieved by other means.

I do not mention modern bi-turbo automotive diesels that reliably pull north of 200 HP out of 2 liter displacement, as they rely heavily on computer control, albeit mostly for emissions.

If we did not have access to electricity and turbojets, I wonder how far would IC diesel in air go.

WeberFan wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Thanks, Weber Fan.. It seems jets are less likely to transgress the Proscriptions than gasoline IC engines. That is consistent with current development of steam turbines and reliance on pneumatics. Heck, the Royal College has a specialization in pressures. All told, jets appear to be the preferred engine for heavier than air flight. Diesel and steam will likely be the preferred IC engine for almost every other use.

I wonder what this might mean for aircraft carriers. Will we see helicopters? Will we see steam tanks or diesel? Will we see various types of propulsion in naval ships? I can't wait to read about all of this.

I wouldn't necessarily jets are the immediate future, PeterZ. IMHO, diesel-powered props would be a good - a very good - intermediate step. Props work very well at relatively low RPMs while jets require (literally) thousands of RPM to work well.

My background included flying single and multi-engine turbojets. Normal idle was on the order of 6000 RPM and 100% power was a bit over 12,000. Interesting things happen from a metallurgical thing when you heat metals up to combustion temperatures and rotate them at those speeds. Blade creep being one of them.

OTOH, a diesel driving a prop through an appropriate set of gearing is just so much more simple - and reliable. For the prop, I'd go with (probably) a prop with 4, controllable pitch paddle blades. I think a diesel would drive that prop just fine.

If I were going to implement heavier-than-air aircraft, I'd go (initially) with a straight-wing/high-wing design with a relatively thick/high aspect ratio wing (lots of lift and also gives you lots of space for fuel in the wings). Perhaps not the most maneuverable thing in the world, but quite adequate. My initial design would have manual (cable and linkage) control systems which are quite workable at relatively low speeds when you trim them up. Probably a single engine at first (a bit underpowered, but workable). I'd use the single-engine only for overland flights or those with short periods overwater. When the engine technology evolves a bit, you could then go to a multi-engine design for longer, overwater flights. One thing I would NOT do - even at the outset - is to design a tail-dragger. I'd go with a tricycle landing gear from the outset with a manual crank to get the gear up (to reduce weight and, with the gear up to reduce drag). Yep... I can picture the 220 knot (single engine) up to perhaps 300 knot (twin engine) aircraft in my head as I write this...
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:24 pm

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I wonder if steam tanks will be better than diesel at least initially? As heavy as tanks are, diesels will need a robust transmission. Steam tanks will have direct drives. Also, iirc, the Doble steam engine got to the point of driving 1,500 miles before needing to top off the water tank in its tube boiler. The boiler efficiency and ability to avoid complex gearing to manage heavy torque transmission requirements would most likely make steam tanks the preferred model for anyone outside of Charis.

I can see Charis using IC diesel to improve performance in their third and fourth generation tanks. I don't see other nations going to diesel right away if only to avoid unnecessary complexity.

I also believe that diesel commercial heavier than air aircraft will be in use by the start of the next story arc. They won't have a great deal of aerobatic performance, but will be able to fly long distances with a great deal of reliability. Coupled with dirigibles for naval scouting and fleet communications and Charis will have much improved communications available to anyone NOT part of the Inner circle.

I suspect that there will be jets in development and perhaps available in small numbers by the next story arc. The metallurgy may be expensive, but it is possible.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by Silverwall   » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:23 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I wonder if steam tanks will be better than diesel at least initially? As heavy as tanks are, diesels will need a robust transmission. Steam tanks will have direct drives. Also, iirc, the Doble steam engine got to the point of driving 1,500 miles before needing to top off the water tank in its tube boiler. The boiler efficiency and ability to avoid complex gearing to manage heavy torque transmission requirements would most likely make steam tanks the preferred model for anyone outside of Charis.

I can see Charis using IC diesel to improve performance in their third and fourth generation tanks. I don't see other nations going to diesel right away if only to avoid unnecessary complexity.

I also believe that diesel commercial heavier than air aircraft will be in use by the start of the next story arc. They won't have a great deal of aerobatic performance, but will be able to fly long distances with a great deal of reliability. Coupled with dirigibles for naval scouting and fleet communications and Charis will have much improved communications available to anyone NOT part of the Inner circle.

I suspect that there will be jets in development and perhaps available in small numbers by the next story arc. The metallurgy may be expensive, but it is possible.


Steam tanks are only required if the opposition have automatic weapons. That realistically requires the church forces to have smokeless centrefire cartridges and developing proper modern (Circa 1890)industrial techniques which they are still well short of at the end of the current arc. Even then the scale of the engagements is more eastern front than western front which is what promoted the development and deployment of early tanks. Until you get to late 1930s tech tanks are not that much use in mobile warfare. Logistics is the killer here, remember Hitler invaded russia with a mostly Horse powered army!

As an observation on the series in general RFC is glossing over a lot of the machinetools and supply side issues that would be faced in such a situation as this. Even given the advantages in a better practical base and outside knowledge both sides are progressing far faster than is practical given where they started from. Basically infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructre and more infrastructure and backend industrial logistics has been glossed over in a massive way. NOTE: this is not a critiscism of the story just that it diverges from reality and know development quite noticibly if you have studied industrial logistics and the history of industrialisation.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:36 pm

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Silverwall wrote:
Steam tanks are only required if the opposition have automatic weapons. That realistically requires the church forces to have smokeless centrefire cartridges and developing proper modern (Circa 1890)industrial techniques which they are still well short of at the end of the current arc. Even then the scale of the engagements is more eastern front than western front which is what promoted the development and deployment of early tanks. Until you get to late 1930s tech tanks are not that much use in mobile warfare. Logistics is the killer here, remember Hitler invaded russia with a mostly Horse powered army!

As an observation on the series in general RFC is glossing over a lot of the machinetools and supply side issues that would be faced in such a situation as this. Even given the advantages in a better practical base and outside knowledge both sides are progressing far faster than is practical given where they started from. Basically infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructre and more infrastructure and backend industrial logistics has been glossed over in a massive way. NOTE: this is not a critiscism of the story just that it diverges from reality and know development quite noticibly if you have studied industrial logistics and the history of industrialisation.

Then I suspect that Charis will develop the machinegun knowing others will copy their idea. They will work on tanks to stay one step ahead of their military competitors' machineguns. They will develop diesel aircraft engines to counter competitors dirigibles and jets to offset others diesel aircraft.

At this point in the story it isn't about securing a permanent military advantage, but securing an innovative mindset. Allowing others to "steal" some of their secrets is the best way to keep technological development moving.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by doug941   » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:07 am

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Silverwall wrote:
PeterZ wrote:I wonder if steam tanks will be better than diesel at least initially? As heavy as tanks are, diesels will need a robust transmission. Steam tanks will have direct drives. Also, iirc, the Doble steam engine got to the point of driving 1,500 miles before needing to top off the water tank in its tube boiler. The boiler efficiency and ability to avoid complex gearing to manage heavy torque transmission requirements would most likely make steam tanks the preferred model for anyone outside of Charis.

I can see Charis using IC diesel to improve performance in their third and fourth generation tanks. I don't see other nations going to diesel right away if only to avoid unnecessary complexity.

I also believe that diesel commercial heavier than air aircraft will be in use by the start of the next story arc. They won't have a great deal of aerobatic performance, but will be able to fly long distances with a great deal of reliability. Coupled with dirigibles for naval scouting and fleet communications and Charis will have much improved communications available to anyone NOT part of the Inner circle.

I suspect that there will be jets in development and perhaps available in small numbers by the next story arc. The metallurgy may be expensive, but it is possible.


Steam tanks are only required if the opposition have automatic weapons. That realistically requires the church forces to have smokeless centrefire cartridges and developing proper modern (Circa 1890)industrial techniques which they are still well short of at the end of the current arc. Even then the scale of the engagements is more eastern front than western front which is what promoted the development and deployment of early tanks. Until you get to late 1930s tech tanks are not that much use in mobile warfare. Logistics is the killer here, remember Hitler invaded russia with a mostly Horse powered army!

As an observation on the series in general RFC is glossing over a lot of the machinetools and supply side issues that would be faced in such a situation as this. Even given the advantages in a better practical base and outside knowledge both sides are progressing far faster than is practical given where they started from. Basically infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructre and more infrastructure and backend industrial logistics has been glossed over in a massive way. NOTE: this is not a critiscism of the story just that it diverges from reality and know development quite noticibly if you have studied industrial logistics and the history of industrialisation.


Two points Silverwall. MOST machine guns require smokeless powder but the Maxim was originally designed for black powder. As a pure recoil weapon, fouling is much less of a problem.
Second the Vickers Medium mk ii & iii tanks from the mid 1920s would work just fine.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by Silverwall   » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:41 pm

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I know the BP mgs can be made but they suffer badly from fouling, this is why until smokeless gatling guns were often more viable as they have far fewer fouling issues having multiple barrels.

The other problem with BP machine guns is the lack of energy for recoil operation (we just won't go there for gas systems and BP).

I am aware of the cruiser tanks from the 20s but it's not the tanks that are the issue its the ability to logistically support them that is at issue. The whole spare parts, lubricants, fuel etc issues. As of the end of the current book they have only just started down the petrochemical development tree and there are a million and one technologies to work out.

In the case of many techs charis 'Could' produce the question is often "can we make and supply enough to be meaningful" and for tanks that is doubtful. Also doing so without the supporting eletric tech to make them tactically useful is hard. Trying to control tank squadrons without electricity aka radio is very hard and greatly reduces efficiency as was proved by the brits on Salisbury plains and the Red Army in WW2. There is a lot more than just making tanks and jets and MGs and what have you. You need to be able to deploy it effectivly and without electricity Command and Control is a debacle that makes the devices vastly less useful.

The ability of both sides in the recent war to control large formations over vast fronts while using technology from the napoleonic era was one of the things where my suspension of disbelief failed miserably. Just look at the issues all sides suffered in communications in WW1 when they had radio and telegraphs. That is one of the primary reasons for the German failure in the Schleiffan plan. They could not controll and coordinate thier forces effectivley. (Idot generals going off script didn't help but the killer was not knowing the big picture)
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by Erls   » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:11 pm

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Speaking of infrastructure, I would be really happy if in the next book we get a couple of nice "info dumps" on the new infrastructure Charis (and others) are building. Some examples of this include, but are certainly not limited to:

- How railroads are being built on Charis, Chisholm, Silverlode, and the rest of the Empire to facilitate transportation, economic growth, and population growth.
- How countries like Siddarmark that have traditionally relied on canals are using railroads. Are they building them along the Canals to pull barges at much faster speeds, for example?
- How much planning for "the future" is Charis doing? For example, is Tellesburg building a "massive" balloon/dirigible facility in a prime location just outside the city that just so happens to be large enough to contain multiple (future) runways capable of handling 787s and spacecraft?
- How many countries create national infrastructure projects and heavily fund them?

And, as a follow up.. What are the effects of these major infrastructure projects? Does Chisholm (likely) connecting all major cities and natural resource locations via rail further cement the power of the crown and unify the populace, or does it create another (failed) uprising among those who lose out?
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by n7axw   » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:15 pm

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Erls wrote:Speaking of infrastructure, I would be really happy if in the next book we get a couple of nice "info dumps" on the new infrastructure Charis (and others) are building. Some examples of this include, but are certainly not limited to:

- How railroads are being built on Charis, Chisholm, Silverlode, and the rest of the Empire to facilitate transportation, economic growth, and population growth.
- How countries like Siddarmark that have traditionally relied on canals are using railroads. Are they building them along the Canals to pull barges at much faster speeds, for example?
- How much planning for "the future" is Charis doing? For example, is Tellesburg building a "massive" balloon/dirigible facility in a prime location just outside the city that just so happens to be large enough to contain multiple (future) runways capable of handling 787s and spacecraft?
- How many countries create national infrastructure projects and heavily fund them?

And, as a follow up.. What are the effects of these major infrastructure projects? Does Chisholm (likely) connecting all major cities and natural resource locations via rail further cement the power of the crown and unify the populace, or does it create another (failed) uprising among those who lose out?


You want info dumps? Count on it. RFC loves info dumps! :lol:

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:26 pm

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Perhaps a compendium? That's what I want!
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Re: King Haalahd VII's design
Post by lyonheart   » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:20 am

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Hi Erls,

Siddarmark will use steam tugs for towing its canal/river barges at a somewhat higher speed [7-9 mph versus 11-13] while still being a low energy large bulk transport system, while the railroads will be faster with higher value cargoes a more strategic [initially defensive] network that cuts out the corners and zigzags of the rivers etc, that will enable SRA reinforcements to reach the border areas in ~3 days.

Predicting where RFC is putting the republic's railroads is almost a recipe for disaster, bur some might consider it worth a thread. ;)

For Chisholm, a cross continental river connected by canal system is possible for bulk low value cargo, while the first major railroad will likely extend Cherayth N-S from Maikelberg to Port Royal, in part to encourage investors in the cross-
continental route, followed by more N-S routes going west then a southern E-W coastal route and eventually a northern E-W route.
Silverlode needs more terraforming before RR's are deeply needed, while Charis needs RR around Howell Bay, up to Hiawatha then east along the throat to Emerald Bay, besides others radiating from Tellesburg from the east to the west, besides connectors to Margaret's land and it's west coast to connect to Tarot via ferry.

To start with, Emerald gets both N-S and E-W routes from coast to coast.

Time to go, so suggest some for the rest.

L


Erls wrote:Speaking of infrastructure, I would be really happy if in the next book we get a couple of nice "info dumps" on the new infrastructure Charis (and others) are building. Some examples of this include, but are certainly not limited to:

- How railroads are being built on Charis, Chisholm, Silverlode, and the rest of the Empire to facilitate transportation, economic growth, and population growth.
- How countries like Siddarmark that have traditionally relied on canals are using railroads. Are they building them along the Canals to pull barges at much faster speeds, for example?
- How much planning for "the future" is Charis doing? For example, is Tellesburg building a "massive" balloon/dirigible facility in a prime location just outside the city that just so happens to be large enough to contain multiple (future) runways capable of handling 787s and spacecraft?
- How many countries create national infrastructure projects and heavily fund them?

And, as a follow up.. What are the effects of these major infrastructure projects? Does Chisholm (likely) connecting all major cities and natural resource locations via rail further cement the power of the crown and unify the populace, or does it create another (failed) uprising among those who lose out?
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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