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Was Duchairn Sabotaging the Jihad?

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Was Duchairn Sabotaging the Jihad?
Post by WeberFan   » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:45 pm

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I've been rereading the series again - for about the 20th time...

And I cam across the following about halfway through LAMA August Year of God 896.II. The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands:

"That's true." Duchairn nodded. "Unfortunately, the transport problems mean we have a huge logistical logjam well behind the front. I've got somewhere around thirty thousand rifles stuck short of the Tanshar border a tthe moment. It's going to be very hard to break them free, with all the emphasis on getting materials to repair the canals forward, and I'm afraid additional new production weapons may be stuck even farther up the line than that."

And I can keep them jammed where they are for at least another month before I run out of logical excuses for Zhaspar, Allayn. He didn't actually say the words, but he thought them loudly, indeed, and Magwair's eyes flickered.


The piece that's in italics was that way in the book, but it's also the point I want to emphasize too.

At this point in the timeline, I THINK the MHoG (Harchongians) is assembling in the Temple Lands, so perhaps Duchairn is thinking about directing the rifles to them.

But at the same time, we already know that Duchairn is having his crisis of conscience - lots of textev to that effect.

As for me, I think he's messing with the AOG's logistics to sabotage the jihad. Obviously he's aware that he can't do it openly, and there has to always be a good reason for what he's doing lest Clyntahn suspect... I've got this thought niggling around the back of my brain that there's lots of other textev beginning in LAMA talking about things Duchairn has done to hamper the war effort.
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Re: Was Duchairn Sabotaging the Jihad?
Post by n7axw   » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:37 pm

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WeberFan wrote:I've been rereading the series again - for about the 20th time...

And I cam across the following about halfway through LAMA August Year of God 896.II. The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands:

"That's true." Duchairn nodded. "Unfortunately, the transport problems mean we have a huge logistical logjam well behind the front. I've got somewhere around thirty thousand rifles stuck short of the Tanshar border a tthe moment. It's going to be very hard to break them free, with all the emphasis on getting materials to repair the canals forward, and I'm afraid additional new production weapons may be stuck even farther up the line than that."

And I can keep them jammed where they are for at least another month before I run out of logical excuses for Zhaspar, Allayn. He didn't actually say the words, but he thought them loudly, indeed, and Magwair's eyes flickered.


The piece that's in italics was that way in the book, but it's also the point I want to emphasize too.

At this point in the timeline, I THINK the MHoG (Harchongians) is assembling in the Temple Lands, so perhaps Duchairn is thinking about directing the rifles to them.

But at the same time, we already know that Duchairn is having his crisis of conscience - lots of textev to that effect.

As for me, I think he's messing with the AOG's logistics to sabotage the jihad. Obviously he's aware that he can't do it openly, and there has to always be a good reason for what he's doing lest Clyntahn suspect... I've got this thought niggling around the back of my brain that there's lots of other textev beginning in LAMA talking about things Duchairn has done to hamper the war effort.


I think that the passage cited represented an attempt to sabatoge Clyntahn's efforts to screw over the jihad...again.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Was Duchairn Sabotaging the Jihad?
Post by Randomiser   » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:09 pm

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WeberFan wrote:I've been rereading the series again - for about the 20th time...

And I cam across the following about halfway through LAMA August Year of God 896.II. The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands:

"That's true." Duchairn nodded. "Unfortunately, the transport problems mean we have a huge logistical logjam well behind the front. I've got somewhere around thirty thousand rifles stuck short of the Tanshar border a tthe moment. It's going to be very hard to break them free, with all the emphasis on getting materials to repair the canals forward, and I'm afraid additional new production weapons may be stuck even farther up the line than that."



And I can keep them jammed where they are for at least another month before I run out of logical excuses for Zhaspar, Allayn. He didn't actually say the words, but he thought them loudly, indeed, and Magwair's eyes flickered.


The piece that's in italics was that way in the book, but it's also the point I want to emphasize too.

At this point in the timeline, I THINK the MHoG (Harchongians) is assembling in the Temple Lands, so perhaps Duchairn is thinking about directing the rifles to them.

But at the same time, we already know that Duchairn is having his crisis of conscience - lots of textev to that effect.

As for me, I think he's messing with the AOG's logistics to sabotage the jihad. Obviously he's aware that he can't do it openly, and there has to always be a good reason for what he's doing lest Clyntahn suspect... I've got this thought niggling around the back of my brain that there's lots of other textev beginning in LAMA talking about things Duchairn has done to hamper the war effort.


AFAIR they were discussing withdrawing pikemen out of one of the bogged down situations in Siddermark and withdrawing them far enough to get them retrained as riflemen over the winter, all contrary to Clinton's call for no retreat. I must admit I did wonder if Duchairn was trying to get hold of some decent weapons to arm a force not loyal to Clintahn near enough to Zion to intervene. It is certainly heavily hinted as being important, but in fact, AFAIR, we never hear of these weapons or what happens to them again, so it kind of fizzles.
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Re: Was Duchairn Sabotaging the Jihad?
Post by JBNL1972   » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:47 am

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A more mundane theory might be to prevent having enough armed and capable men forward for Clyntahn to start sitting on the local battlefield comander to try and pull a Kaitswyrth on the Daivyn ... which would make Duchairn's reaction understandable, wishing to end the campaign season in less desperate straits and better prepared for next year's, and Maigwair for keeping Clyntahn out of the army chain of command as much as possible.

Sabotage - probably not ... trying to moderate Clyntahn's zeal with a bit of obstruction to get a more sensible winter position, very likely.
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Re: Was Duchairn Sabotaging the Jihad?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:37 pm

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WeberFan wrote:I've been rereading the series again - for about the 20th time...

And I cam across the following about halfway through LAMA August Year of God 896.II. The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands:

"That's true." Duchairn nodded. "Unfortunately, the transport problems mean we have a huge logistical logjam well behind the front. I've got somewhere around thirty thousand rifles stuck short of the Tanshar border a tthe moment. It's going to be very hard to break them free, with all the emphasis on getting materials to repair the canals forward, and I'm afraid additional new production weapons may be stuck even farther up the line than that."

And I can keep them jammed where they are for at least another month before I run out of logical excuses for Zhaspar, Allayn. He didn't actually say the words, but he thought them loudly, indeed, and Magwair's eyes flickered.


The piece that's in italics was that way in the book, but it's also the point I want to emphasize too.

At this point in the timeline, I THINK the MHoG (Harchongians) is assembling in the Temple Lands, so perhaps Duchairn is thinking about directing the rifles to them.

But at the same time, we already know that Duchairn is having his crisis of conscience - lots of textev to that effect.

As for me, I think he's messing with the AOG's logistics to sabotage the jihad. Obviously he's aware that he can't do it openly, and there has to always be a good reason for what he's doing lest Clyntahn suspect... I've got this thought niggling around the back of my brain that there's lots of other textev beginning in LAMA talking about things Duchairn has done to hamper the war effort.


Not sabotage the Jihad, but prepare a coup against Clyntahn. Revisit May 897, chapter III in Zion. Clyntahn discusses Ruhsail Symmyns' questionable loyalty with Rayno. That bottleneck means Clyntahn can't argue that keeping some of the newer rifles close Zion in the Episcopate of Schueler was purely a logistical constraint rather than a more nefarious plan.

One might recall that those troops helped stabilize the Temple in Duchairn's favor after the uprising. Yes, Magwair managed to purge Clyntahn loyalists after the Fist of God blew up Clyntahn's military schemers. The rifles, however, were already in place because Duchairn had played logistical games.
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Re: Was Duchairn Sabotaging the Jihad?
Post by WeberFan   » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:20 pm

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When Clyntahn started the Jihad, and when Duchairn got the note from Wylsyn, Duchairn started making a lot of decisions that were perfectly rational from a "doing what's best for the Jihad" perspective. But in his own subtle way, and in keeping with 20:20 hindsight, those same decisions could each be seen as hindering the success of the Jihad.

Whether they were explicitly made to keep the Jihad from succeeding, or whether they were just poor decisions, or whether they did nothing more than forestall the inevitable is the point I'm trying to explore.

If one reads of Duchairn's recommendation to pull back all the pikemen because of the North Haven winter conditions - and if one looks at it only in a vacuum - then it makes perfect logistical sense given what those pikemen would be facing, and given the cold and lack of supplies. The same could be said of a lot of other decisions.

But when I read all the books from MT&T onward, and when I consider Duchairn's decisions in the new context, I'm not so sure...
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Re: Was Duchairn Sabotaging the Jihad?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:33 pm

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Duchairn has tried to counter Clyntahn since OAR. The one constant guiding principle Duchairn has used is to reduce the bloodshed where ever he can. At first Duchairn still believed that the schism could be healed and he wanted to reduce the atrocities that would ensure the schism's permanence. Later, he would try to keep AoG unprepared troops away from the front lines. Yes, I believe he earmarked arms to troops that might counter the Inquisition as well.

I don't think that Duchairn truly opposed the CoGA winning the jihad even if he wished it had never begun. I do think that he opposed the degree of brutality that Clyntahn sought eagerly. His goal from the beginning, well, after OAR anyway, was to heal the schism.
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Re: Was Duchairn Sabotaging the Jihad?
Post by thanatos   » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:57 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Duchairn has tried to counter Clyntahn since OAR. The one constant guiding principle Duchairn has used is to reduce the bloodshed where ever he can. At first Duchairn still believed that the schism could be healed and he wanted to reduce the atrocities that would ensure the schism's permanence. Later, he would try to keep AoG unprepared troops away from the front lines. Yes, I believe he earmarked arms to troops that might counter the Inquisition as well.

I don't think that Duchairn truly opposed the CoGA winning the jihad even if he wished it had never begun. I do think that he opposed the degree of brutality that Clyntahn sought eagerly. His goal from the beginning, well, after OAR anyway, was to heal the schism.


Duchairn was making his own preparations to counter Clyntahn from about the same time Clyntahn "purged" the Church of the Wylsyns. This segment however was made in the context of the recent Great Canal Raid, which hamstrung the Church's logistics in Northern Siddarmark. Duchairn needed to push work parties and food for the troops through the few remaining routes against Clyntahn's constant demand that weapons be brought to the front (rather than moving the pikemen to the rear to train on the new weapons properly). Worse, I think it was in HFQ when the Inner Circle notes that mainland highroads were never designed for such heavy freight and troop movement, making the church's logistics all the more difficult. So no, this wasn't an example of Duchairn creatively rerouting weapons to troops loyal to him but rather him prioritizing logistics over weaponry, fighting momentum and morale that were far more important to Clyntahn.
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Re: Was Duchairn Sabotaging the Jihad?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:22 pm

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thanatos wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Duchairn has tried to counter Clyntahn since OAR. The one constant guiding principle Duchairn has used is to reduce the bloodshed where ever he can. At first Duchairn still believed that the schism could be healed and he wanted to reduce the atrocities that would ensure the schism's permanence. Later, he would try to keep AoG unprepared troops away from the front lines. Yes, I believe he earmarked arms to troops that might counter the Inquisition as well.

I don't think that Duchairn truly opposed the CoGA winning the jihad even if he wished it had never begun. I do think that he opposed the degree of brutality that Clyntahn sought eagerly. His goal from the beginning, well, after OAR anyway, was to heal the schism.


Duchairn was making his own preparations to counter Clyntahn from about the same time Clyntahn "purged" the Church of the Wylsyns. This segment however was made in the context of the recent Great Canal Raid, which hamstrung the Church's logistics in Northern Siddarmark. Duchairn needed to push work parties and food for the troops through the few remaining routes against Clyntahn's constant demand that weapons be brought to the front (rather than moving the pikemen to the rear to train on the new weapons properly). Worse, I think it was in HFQ when the Inner Circle notes that mainland highroads were never designed for such heavy freight and troop movement, making the church's logistics all the more difficult. So no, this wasn't an example of Duchairn creatively rerouting weapons to troops loyal to him but rather him prioritizing logistics over weaponry, fighting momentum and morale that were far more important to Clyntahn.


Duchairn could have sent the weapons to the Harchongese, but instead sent the to Ruhsail Symmyns across Lake Pei. He used the need to send forward materials for the locks to redirect supplies that couldn't go all the way to the front to troops more loyal to Magwair instead.

Nothing overt and obviously undermining, but still using an opportunity to strengthen his position against Clyntahn.
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