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The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...

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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:05 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Where do they go? Why they all go south of course, even the Northern boys. That's been my point all along. Keeping that force together is more disruptive than breaking them up. If Duchairn really wants to make it up to those men, ship their families south to join them.

And just how do you propose to get NH to cough up those families?

By being given the alternatives of accepting their soldiers back or allowing those families to join them down south. I am sure that some sort of bribery should also help. Heck, perhaps Cayleb and Sharley can supply the ships to facilitate that transfer. That can be another way to subsidize more steamers being built.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by n7axw   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:41 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Where do they go? Why they all go south of course, even the Northern boys. That's been my point all along. Keeping that force together is more disruptive than breaking them up. If Duchairn really wants to make it up to those men, ship their families south to join them.

And just how do you propose to get NH to cough up those families?


Sending them south with their families would be acceptable. As fallsfromtrees noted, getting those families out might not be easy. I'm not in favor of keeping them together as a military force unless they go back to N. Harchong. It is sort of a way of saying that if we must have a disruption, let's aim it where it is needed and make it a doozy.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:54 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Where do they go? Why they all go south of course, even the Northern boys. That's been my point all along. Keeping that force together is more disruptive than breaking them up. If Duchairn really wants to make it up to those men, ship their families south to join them.
fallsfromtrees wrote:And just how do you propose to get NH to cough up those families?
n7axw wrote:Sending them south with their families would be acceptable. As fallsfromtrees noted, getting those families out might not be easy. I'm not in favor of keeping them together as a military force unless they go back to N. Harchong. It is sort of a way of saying that if we must have a disruption, let's aim it where it is needed and make it a doozy.

Don

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I agree. I just don't think either Charis nor Siddermark can get that concession without obviously insisting on a poisoned pill.

Sending the MH South as a whole force and offering to help get their families down to join them is far less obvious but still provides only a slightly less critical thrust to the CoGA. Those troops will tempt Harchiong to use against Desnair. This will make South Harchong a bit more.....independant minded relative to North Harchong. The disruption to Desnair's ecopnomy won't be as devastating as the MH in North harchong, but the social changes will be as drastic.

As I see it, South harchong will have even greater incentives to increase the efficiency of their production should it have to support a very large army. Desnair will be forced to innovate or get conquored. North Harchong can allow itself to stagnate further, while thinking they have all the social changes under control when they sent the MH South. Yup, head fuirmly planted in the sand.

So in the intervening years, Desnair will have its sociaty altered massively as the anti-slavery faction rises in power in the war against Harchong. Some faction will seek aid from Charis and will only egt it if they liberalize. North harchong sees 20 years of increasing marginalization as a military/economy force, while South Harchong begins to be the center of wealth and power for the Empire. One suspects that Desnair will lose some measure of territory to Harchong before peace resumes.

One hopes that the story resumes with south Harchong more agressively demanding the abolition of serfdom and more autonomy for the South.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by n7axw   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:11 pm

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Just one qualification... S Harchong would have to agree. It certainly wouldn't be right to dump 1.5 million plus people on them without them knowing what they were getting into and consenting.

I see no reason for S Harchong to remain tied to the north. The north wouldn't be able to do anything but howl, especially if Charis offered a bit of naval support to keep the north in it's own playpen.

Don

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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:02 am

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n7axw wrote:Just one qualification... S Harchong would have to agree. It certainly wouldn't be right to dump 1.5 million plus people on them without them knowing what they were getting into and consenting.

I see no reason for S Harchong to remain tied to the north. The north wouldn't be able to do anything but howl, especially if Charis offered a bit of naval support to keep the north in it's own playpen.

Don

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Agreed. However, the power base down south is mercantile. That mindset would want the additional potential workforce those troops represent. Especially given the massive wealth Charis created with its workforce That those troops have the training to wage war has to be seen as a benefit if for no other reason than to offset the North's established military.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by Keith_w   » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:30 am

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One problem I can see with either their returning to North Harchong or moving to South Harchong or anywhere else with their families is how do they locate their families?

These are serfs, slaves in all but name, they are not educated, they probably barely knew their lord's (ok, owner's) name and since their ability to travel was mostly limited to going out the the feilds.

If you are going to not return them to North Harchong, and do want to reunite them, how do you locate their families? Are you counting on North Harchong keeping a record of where they came from? You certainly can't just walk into a village and announce that anyone who's spouse got drafted for the MHoG should pack up the kids and come with them to be re-united. How do you deal with those whose spouses were killed?

If you are going to return them to where they came from, how will they know where to go? And how do you get them there? Do you take them to the Harchongese border and say "Ok, go home now"? Hoo boy, talk about a recipe for disaster!
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:01 am

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Harchong has an effective bureaucracy. The Church also has one. Recall Clyntahn's comments to Rayno when demanding he find Mab. They have records of every birth, marriage, death and questionable activity. Finding families will only be a matter will not ability.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by n7axw   » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:59 pm

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Keith_w wrote:One problem I can see with either their returning to North Harchong or moving to South Harchong or anywhere else with their families is how do they locate their families?

These are serfs, slaves in all but name, they are not educated, they probably barely knew their lord's (ok, owner's) name and since their ability to travel was mostly limited to going out the the feilds.

If you are going to not return them to North Harchong, and do want to reunite them, how do you locate their families? Are you counting on North Harchong keeping a record of where they came from? You certainly can't just walk into a village and announce that anyone who's spouse got drafted for the MHoG should pack up the kids and come with them to be re-united. How do you deal with those whose spouses were killed?

If you are going to return them to where they came from, how will they know where to go? And how do you get them there? Do you take them to the Harchongese border and say "Ok, go home now"? Hoo boy, talk about a recipe for disaster!


If you are sending them the North Harchong, you march them back the same way they came... One would think they would know who their families were along with what village they come from. In my scheme you keep them together as an army until you knew that they could be safely mustered out.

If you send them to S Harchong, reuniting the families would have to be the price the north paid to send their vets elsewhere. As for what happens when they get everybody south, maybe Peter's proposal of absorbing them into the workforce would work. I am a bit less optimistic about that, however. I find myself thinking that they could be put to work terraforming unconsecrated ground in an unsettled area to establish new communities that could be eventually self sustaining.

Don

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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:24 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Keith_w wrote:One problem I can see with either their returning to North Harchong or moving to South Harchong or anywhere else with their families is how do they locate their families?

These are serfs, slaves in all but name, they are not educated, they probably barely knew their lord's (ok, owner's) name and since their ability to travel was mostly limited to going out the the feilds.

If you are going to not return them to North Harchong, and do want to reunite them, how do you locate their families? Are you counting on North Harchong keeping a record of where they came from? You certainly can't just walk into a village and announce that anyone who's spouse got drafted for the MHoG should pack up the kids and come with them to be re-united. How do you deal with those whose spouses were killed?

If you are going to return them to where they came from, how will they know where to go? And how do you get them there? Do you take them to the Harchongese border and say "Ok, go home now"? Hoo boy, talk about a recipe for disaster!


If you are sending them the North Harchong, you march them back the same way they came... One would think they would know who their families were along with what village they come from. In my scheme you keep them together as an army until you knew that they could be safely mustered out.

If you send them to S Harchong, reuniting the families would have to be the price the north paid to send their vets elsewhere. As for what happens when they get everybody south, maybe Peter's proposal of absorbing them into the workforce would work. I am a bit less optimistic about that, however. I find myself thinking that they could be put to work terraforming unconsecrated ground in an unsettled area to establish new communities that could be eventually self sustaining.

Don

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Embrace the power of *and*. Green Tree Island has unconsecrated land. Not sure the ecology of the Baren Lands, but consecrating that land mass is a good project. I just doubt the MH will be allowed to retie in peace. Their skills will find useful employ.

I can see the governor of Queiroz encouraging many of the families to relocate their and use that as an excuse to expand his tereritory peacefully. Even of MH remains intact, their families can relaocate to Green Tree and still make Queiroz much richer.

Upon further consideration, Green Tree Island will likely remain independent of Harchong. I can see Charis supporting the residents desires NOT to be subject to Harchong's serf laws. Perhaps the Island will form a government around a core of SSK members leaving the Abbey to form a secular government. I can see all parties going for that.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by thanatos   » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:17 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
n7axw wrote:
If you are sending them the North Harchong, you march them back the same way they came... One would think they would know who their families were along with what village they come from. In my scheme you keep them together as an army until you knew that they could be safely mustered out.

If you send them to S Harchong, reuniting the families would have to be the price the north paid to send their vets elsewhere. As for what happens when they get everybody south, maybe Peter's proposal of absorbing them into the workforce would work. I am a bit less optimistic about that, however. I find myself thinking that they could be put to work terraforming unconsecrated ground in an unsettled area to establish new communities that could be eventually self sustaining.

Don

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Embrace the power of *and*. Green Tree Island has unconsecrated land. Not sure the ecology of the Baren Lands, but consecrating that land mass is a good project. I just doubt the MH will be allowed to retie in peace. Their skills will find useful employ.

I can see the governor of Queiroz encouraging many of the families to relocate their and use that as an excuse to expand his tereritory peacefully. Even of MH remains intact, their families can relaocate to Green Tree and still make Queiroz much richer.

Upon further consideration, Green Tree Island will likely remain independent of Harchong. I can see Charis supporting the residents desires NOT to be subject to Harchong's serf laws. Perhaps the Island will form a government around a core of SSK members leaving the Abbey to form a secular government. I can see all parties going for that.


Again people, Green Tree Island might not be as big as you think. All the islands of Hawaii boast a population of may be 1.5 million, and that is today, with a modern, industrialized society with modern medical care. It would take months to terraform any such island and further months still until the crops ripen, and this all assumes the land is good for farming and that there is enough to feed 2-3 million soldiers enough to sustain them. Remember that RFC has repeatedly stated, throughout all of his writing, his aversion to sweeping, simplistic solutions to complicated problems. This is no different.

The portion of the MH that care from South Harchong will be allowed to return home. If North Harchong is willing to give up on all of its soldiers in MH, even now in the post-Jihad period they have to be worried about the security of their borders with Siddarmark, the Border States and even their coastline (in the absence of any naval power). They can't simply toss aside such a fighting force, no matter what reservations they have regarding is reliability and loyalty (or lack thereof). Most dictatorships today have a very difficult relationship with their military. While it is the one force capable of challenging the regime, it also the force capable of defending the country from foreign threats. So Harchong can't simply disband the MH or else send it down to South Harchong and hope to keep it busy with an invasion of Desnair. Nor do I believe that Harchong is willing to hand such well trained troops to its southern lobe, given the vast cultural and economic differences between the Empire's two parts (and perhaps the South's desire for independence from the Empire).

Nor do I believe that Duchairn would simply let Desnair and Harchong have at it even a few years after the Jihad. Magwair would almost certainly insist on maintaining at least nominal numeric parity with the forces Siddarmark and Charis can field in order to maintain at least some deterrence against Charisian or Siddarmarkian "adventurism". The Church simply cannot afford internal squabbles at a time when at least half of the planet's surface is outside of its control. I know some here had argued that Harchong could become stubborn on this issue and demand that Mother Church acquiesce on this issue upon the threat of schism between them and the Church. In theory, they could perhaps get away with such a threat, but in practice it would put them in the position of waging war against Mother Church, with the MH probably joining forces with the AOG in order to "liberate" their homeland. And if the MH were already sent down south, the South might fail to support the MH logistically, if only because a war with Desnair would be detrimental to their business / mercantile interests.

What we are likely to see in the next 20 years is a new cold war, with serfdom and slavery becoming the hot button issue that divides the Church from the "heretical" realms. Serfdom and slavery are an essential component of feudalism, as one of the functions of the central religion is to enforce compliance despite the inequities of society, by appealing to people's belief, that their nobility rules by God's grace (and one cannot rebel against God's chosen one). With the Church's universality shattered, coupled with the industrialization every realm will have to embrace, if only to remain within shouting distance of Charis and Siddarmark in terms of military and economic power, and the issue of slavery and serfdom is likely to become both cultural and religious. Remember that for all the southern states' protestations that slavery was essential to their economy, in reality they had fought to maintain the "peculiar institution of slavery" because it was part of their social makeup, meant to maintain their sense of social superiority.

So if the Charis and Siddarmark stand firmly for abolition (which the former did even during the Jihad and latter didn't ever seem to have slavery or serfdom) while the realms still under the Church's control continue to maintain the institutions of serfdom and slavery, Duchairn will find himself in the untenable position of ostensibly supporting the abolition of slavery and serfdom while turning a blind eye to Harchongese and Desnairian serfs and slaves (I doubt a man of his "saintly" image would actually support it, even in private).
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