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The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...

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The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by thanatos   » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:33 pm

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In the epilogue of ATSOT, Merlin reflects upon how Duchairn is salvaging the church. I assume he means from a moralistic perspective, because after all the things RFC has written over the last 4-5 books in the series, I find it hard to believe Duchairn will be able to to truly fix all of the problems the CoGA has because of the Jihad. Sure removing, investigating, trying, convicting and punishing all the of Clyntahn's loyalists would likely be deeply satisfying and productive, but I feel that that was the easy part. Duchairn now has to preside over a church that blew all of its monetary reserves on obsolete galleys and then on wooden hulled galleons that Charis managed to sink or capture. Then they started borrowing money from the secular realms, taxing the Temple Lands directly, cutting every extraneous expenditure they had and selling off as much land and real estate as they could and borrowed money in the form of "victory bonds". In short, the Church is up to its eyeballs in debt, is not receiving tithes from any Charisian held territory (most of which are really wealthy at present) or from Siddarmark (from whom they also borrowed money and then repudiated that debt), has a fraught political relationship with the remaining realms under its control and has to contend with the stream of innovations that will continue to come out of Charis (and the need to embrace those innovations if they don't wish to maintain Charisian military and economic supremacy). So why does Merlin think Duchairn's current policies are such a big problem for his agenda?
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:32 pm

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Because the reveal will be an easier sell if the strongest proponent of the false Creation narrative has no moral standing what-so-ever.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by umbrarchist   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:29 pm

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I have not finished the series but my problem is the entire religious aspect.

How do you account for an alien species nearly wiping out the human race if there is a God? Do the aliens have a God?

Transcendental Agnostic
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by n7axw   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:50 pm

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umbrarchist wrote:I have not finished the series but my problem is the entire religious aspect.

How do you account for an alien species nearly wiping out the human race if there is a God? Do the aliens have a God?

Transcendental Agnostic


If you embrace faith, you focus on how God preserves the human race in the end.

Your question is as old as humanity itself. The direct answer is ultimately in the realm of mystery --unknowable as we learn from those last chapters of the book of Job.

A God whose purposes we could figure out wouldn't be of much use in the end. In fact he wouldn't be God at all. In that sense we are all "agnostic."

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:57 pm

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umbrarchist wrote:I have not finished the series but my problem is the entire religious aspect.

How do you account for an alien species nearly wiping out the human race if there is a God? Do the aliens have a God?

Transcendental Agnostic

What does it matter if God exists in RL with respect to THIS story or even the actual existence of God within the story? The belief in God shapes the characters of the story. The understanding of His nature by the characters of the story impact the menu of options within which they have choose their actions.

As for the Gbaba, Safeholdians don't know about them. Navigating the erroneous beliefs of Safeholdians to convince them of the Gbaba threat is part of the challenge our heroes face.

The reader can approach the story with an atheists, agnostics or believers mind set and still enjoy the story quite nicely.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by Bluesqueak   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:49 pm

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umbrarchist wrote:I have not finished the series but my problem is the entire religious aspect.

How do you account for an alien species nearly wiping out the human race if there is a God? Do the aliens have a God?

Transcendental Agnostic


Well, one religious answer would be to ask 'why nearly?' Because the 'nearly' is rather the point. Within the world of the story, an attempt to wipe out the human race fails, even though the Gbaba have seen Operation Ark style escape attempts before.

As to 'do the aliens believe in God?' no one in the story knows.

But the story is about how faith shapes actions; it doesn't really matter if the reader is themselves religious, as long as they can enjoy a story that's about the kinds of religious conflicts that have shaped our world.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by thanatos   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:31 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Because the reveal will be an easier sell if the strongest proponent of the false Creation narrative has no moral standing what-so-ever.


True.

And yet the Church will not have the ability to silence the Inner Circle by brute force, and as the Circle grows (which it will) and as the "Seijins" move upon the world in an effort to push various realms in the proper direction, no amount of moral standing will help to silence the voice of true heresy to the Church's doctrine. Nor do I think the Church will resolve all its internal financial issues even in 15-20 years, so as to be able to pull same sort of muscle it could before. I also think that the Church will no longer be able to completely restore the trust it had prior to the Jihad, even when the big reveal occurs. Though I still think that they need to prepare the ground for "alternative narratives" of the "creation" and the War Against the Fallen. It seems that this is where RFC is going with the "Lost Testament of Schueler" - Perhaps accompanied by the publication of many more "free thinking" books by authors that no longer need to worry about the church declaring their book heretical because they cause the readers to think or present a story that contravenes the Story of Creation.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by Bluesqueak   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:38 pm

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thanatos wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Because the reveal will be an easier sell if the strongest proponent of the false Creation narrative has no moral standing what-so-ever.


True.

And yet the Church will not have the ability to silence the Inner Circle by brute force, and as the Circle grows (which it will) and as the "Seijins" move upon the world in an effort to push various realms in the proper direction, no amount of moral standing will help to silence the voice of true heresy to the Church's doctrine. Nor do I think the Church will resolve all its internal financial issues even in 15-20 years, so as to be able to pull same sort of muscle it could before. I also think that the Church will no longer be able to completely restore the trust it had prior to the Jihad, even when the big reveal occurs. Though I still think that they need to prepare the ground for "alternative narratives" of the "creation" and the War Against the Fallen. It seems that this is where RFC is going with the "Lost Testament of Schueler" - Perhaps accompanied by the publication of many more "free thinking" books by authors that no longer need to worry about the church declaring their book heretical because they cause the readers to think or present a story that contravenes the Story of Creation.


It won't have the ability to silence the Inner Circle, true. But what it will have done is convinced a lot of Safeholdians that the true church had simply been hijacked by Clyntahn.

Remember, on Safehold Creation isn't a story. It's history. Documented history, with thousands of eyewitness accounts. Alternative narratives will basically need to explain why this documented, true history isn't 'true'; that's going to be difficult in the face of a Mother Church that has reclaimed its reputation as a holy, truthful church.

The bright side is that there clearly are available holes in the Safeholdian world view that can be used to convince people of the truth - because almost everyone presented with the real truth goes 'Oh, that explains a lot.' They don't like the loss of their faith, but the way RFC presents it, the genuine truth is simply a much better fit to the real world than the fake truth.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by n7axw   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:06 pm

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That reputation as a truthful church is going to be hard to reclaim. For many the reputation of the COGA will always be shadowed no matter how hard Duchairn reforms and scrubs. For others, it will appear that God has provided a last minute miracle since Zion survives intact which will fortify their faith.

Either way, the monolithic character of the church's authority has been forever shattered. Never will all Safehold submit to her again.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:27 pm

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Creation is true from the minute the Adams' and Eves' eyes opened. What is not true is what happened before their eyes opened. It has been asserted by the archangels that humanity only began to exist when they opened their eyes. Nothing came before. If there is divine images of the archangels discussing a time when humans e sited prior to Creation, the veracity of the archangels is doubt. It shattered Clyntahn's belief and will likely move others to doubt the Creation "history".
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