The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...

Bluesqueak wrote:

thanatos wrote:True.

And yet the Church will not have the ability to silence the Inner Circle by brute force, and as the Circle grows (which it will) and as the "Seijins" move upon the world in an effort to push various realms in the proper direction, no amount of moral standing will help to silence the voice of true heresy to the Church's doctrine. Nor do I think the Church will resolve all its internal financial issues even in 15-20 years, so as to be able to pull same sort of muscle it could before. I also think that the Church will no longer be able to completely restore the trust it had prior to the Jihad, even when the big reveal occurs. Though I still think that they need to prepare the ground for "alternative narratives" of the "creation" and the War Against the Fallen. It seems that this is where RFC is going with the "Lost Testament of Schueler" - Perhaps accompanied by the publication of many more "free thinking" books by authors that no longer need to worry about the church declaring their book heretical because they cause the readers to think or present a story that contravenes the Story of Creation.

It won't have the ability to silence the Inner Circle, true. But what it will have done is convinced a lot of Safeholdians that the true church had simply been hijacked by Clyntahn.

Remember, on Safehold Creation isn't a story. It's history. Documented history, with thousands of eyewitness accounts. Alternative narratives will basically need to explain why this documented, true history isn't 'true'; that's going to be difficult in the face of a Mother Church that has reclaimed its reputation as a holy, truthful church.

The bright side is that there clearly are available holes in the Safeholdian world view that can be used to convince people of the truth - because almost everyone presented with the real truth goes 'Oh, that explains a lot.' They don't like the loss of their faith, but the way RFC presents it, the genuine truth is simply a much better fit to the real world than the fake truth.

I'm not so sure Duchairn is willing or even able to divorce the Church from Clyntahn so cleanly or completely, especially when Clyntahn used the devoutness and faith of many, both within the Church and among the laity, to launch this war and commit such atrocities. Do you really think Duchairn or any group of devout clergyman will be able to say "the Jihad wasn't Mother Church's fault - It was all that vile Clyntahn's doing"? Especially since I am mortally certain that Charis will insist, as part of the peace settlement, that the Church as an institution and as part of its reforms accept responsibility for its failure to stop Clyntahn and for turning a deaf eye to all the suffering the Inquisition did "in God's name". Just look at all the measures Germany has taken since WWII to make amends for the crimes of Nazism (they do not allow Germans to forget their shameful past). Charis will have this template in OWL's records and a desire to force it on the Church.

As it is, I wonder if after sufficient time has past, a group of truly devout vicars might coalesce within the Church in opposition to Duchairn's willingness to allow certain innovations that are hurting their parishioners. That they demand from Duchairn that he roll back some of the attestations for various innovations because they feel Mother Church has paid her dues and must now reassert itself as "God's bride" in the world. And they won't care that Duchairn's will only extends to the Temple Lands and that many of their mainland allies are less than willing to comply with such a demand. I can easily imagine them telling Duchairn (and themselves) that they need only do their part and God will provide the rest. After all, Clyntahn had managed to convince himself that to get the miracle he expected God to provide to him personally (because he is God's champion after all), the Church needed to prove itself worthy.

thanatos wrote:

I'm not so sure Duchairn is willing or even able to divorce the Church from Clyntahn so cleanly or completely, especially when Clyntahn used the devoutness and faith of many, both within the Church and among the laity, to launch this war and commit such atrocities. Do you really think Duchairn or any group of devout clergyman will be able to say "the Jihad wasn't Mother Church's fault - It was all that vile Clyntahn's doing"? Especially since I am mortally certain that Charis will insist, as part of the peace settlement, that the Church as an institution and as part of its reforms accept responsibility for its failure to stop Clyntahn and for turning a deaf eye to all the suffering the Inquisition did "in God's name". Just look at all the measures Germany has taken since WWII to make amends for the crimes of Nazism (they do not allow Germans to forget their shameful past). Charis will have this template in OWL's records and a desire to force it on the Church.

As it is, I wonder if after sufficient time has past, a group of truly devout vicars might coalesce within the Church in opposition to Duchairn's willingness to allow certain innovations that are hurting their parishioners. That they demand from Duchairn that he roll back some of the attestations for various innovations because they feel Mother Church has paid her dues and must now reassert itself as "God's bride" in the world. And they won't care that Duchairn's will only extends to the Temple Lands and that many of their mainland allies are less than willing to comply with such a demand. I can easily imagine them telling Duchairn (and themselves) that they need only do their part and God will provide the rest. After all, Clyntahn had managed to convince himself that to get the miracle he expected God to provide to him personally (because he is God's champion after all), the Church needed to prove itself worthy.

I think what you are suggesting is more likely to happen after Duchairn is gone. In a decade or perhaps a bit longer, memory will have softened, or perhaps become more bitter, someone will replace Duchairn who does not have either his commitments or moral authority. Then the temptation will happen by to try to turn back the clock to the good ole days when when the church spoke, all of Safehold heeded...

Don

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n7axw wrote:
I think what you are suggesting is more likely to happen after Duchairn is gone. In a decade or perhaps a bit longer, memory will have softened, or perhaps become more bitter, someone will replace Duchairn who does not have either his commitments or moral authority. Then the temptation will happen by to try to turn back the clock to the good ole days when when the church spoke, all of Safehold heeded...

Don

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I was thinking about the... complicated relationship between Israel and Germany today, two generations and 70 years removed from the Holocaust. I must admit that the Germans (to their credit) went out of their way to atone and make amends following WWII, seeking to compensate Holocaust survivors and the State of Israel as a whole in order to establish diplomatic ties with it and be forgiven. And it should be noted that many in Israel at the time (this was in 1951-2) had adamantly opposed any agreement with Germany because they could not forgive the Germans for what was done to them. Even the preliminary Reparations Agreement was protested. There is a famous picture with Menachem Begin (who become prime minister 25 years later) above a sign that reads: "Our honor shall not be sold for money; Our blood shall not be atoned by goods. We shall wipe out the disgrace!"

Yet the first generation has all but died out and the second generation (the children of the Perpetrators in Germany and the survivors in Israel) are getting old. I have read many articles about how this generation in Germany had to come to terms with the sins of their parents, and much of Germany's present attitude to Holocaust remembrance and opposition to any public display of Nazi symbols comes from that generation. The same generation in Israel had to confront the other side of that coin, and reject the ghetto and victim mentality of the diaspora. Yet it is the third generation that is the greatest present concern. This is a generation of young 20- and 30-year-old Germans who would like to view their country's horrific past as ancient history that has little effect on their lives today. In particular, they would like to able to criticize Israel as they criticize any other country without accusations of hypocrisy. It has taken Germans 70 years to reach this point (and the most recent election proves that the far right can still rear its ugly head, even in Germany).

So even if Duchairn is the Konrad Adenauer of the Church of God Awaiting, the scope of the Church's crimes is such that I seriously doubt any successor to Duchairn will be able to embrace the sort of mindset I mentioned. But that's within the Church itself and among the ardent Temple Loyalists. Outside perceptions would be hard to change for a long time. If Israelis could continue to be suspicious of Germany even in the 1990s (following reunification), I would assume that Charisian, Siddarmarkians and any other mainland reformists would continue to be equally suspicious of Mother Church, despite Duchairn's reforms. So what happens the first time the Church has a disagreement with the Kingdom of Dohlar over its willingness to embrace Charisian innovations in order to build its own steam-powered warships? How long before Desnair decides it has to do something regarding Silkiah and its cozy relationship with Charis (which is hurting its economy and its ability to recover from the Jihad)? I really find it hard to imagine that Duchairn will be able to restore the Church's moral standing within 20 years to such a degree that when the truth is finally revealed, the Church's rejection of this truth will be accepted by any except the Temple Loyalists.

thanatos wrote:

n7axw wrote:
I think what you are suggesting is more likely to happen after Duchairn is gone. In a decade or perhaps a bit longer, memory will have softened, or perhaps become more bitter, someone will replace Duchairn who does not have either his commitments or moral authority. Then the temptation will happen by to try to turn back the clock to the good ole days when when the church spoke, all of Safehold heeded...

Don

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I was thinking about the... complicated relationship between Israel and Germany today, two generations and 70 years removed from the Holocaust. I must admit that the Germans (to their credit) went out of their way to atone and make amends following WWII, seeking to compensate Holocaust survivors and the State of Israel as a whole in order to establish diplomatic ties with it and be forgiven. And it should be noted that many in Israel at the time (this was in 1951-2) had adamantly opposed any agreement with Germany because they could not forgive the Germans for what was done to them. Even the preliminary Reparations Agreement was protested. There is a famous picture with Menachem Begin (who become prime minister 25 years later) above a sign that reads: "Our honor shall not be sold for money; Our blood shall not be atoned by goods. We shall wipe out the disgrace!"

Yet the first generation has all but died out and the second generation (the children of the Perpetrators in Germany and the survivors in Israel) are getting old. I have read many articles about how this generation in Germany had to come to terms with the sins of their parents, and much of Germany's present attitude to Holocaust remembrance and opposition to any public display of Nazi symbols comes from that generation. The same generation in Israel had to confront the other side of that coin, and reject the ghetto and victim mentality of the diaspora. Yet it is the third generation that is the greatest present concern. This is a generation of young 20- and 30-year-old Germans who would like to view their country's horrific past as ancient history that has little effect on their lives today. In particular, they would like to able to criticize Israel as they criticize any other country without accusations of hypocrisy. It has taken Germans 70 years to reach this point (and the most recent election proves that the far right can still rear its ugly head, even in Germany).

So even if Duchairn is the Konrad Adenauer of the Church of God Awaiting, the scope of the Church's crimes is such that I seriously doubt any successor to Duchairn will be able to embrace the sort of mindset I mentioned. But that's within the Church itself and among the ardent Temple Loyalists. Outside perceptions would be hard to change for a long time. If Israelis could continue to be suspicious of Germany even in the 1990s (following reunification), I would assume that Charisian, Siddarmarkians and any other mainland reformists would continue to be equally suspicious of Mother Church, despite Duchairn's reforms. So what happens the first time the Church has a disagreement with the Kingdom of Dohlar over its willingness to embrace Charisian innovations in order to build its own steam-powered warships? How long before Desnair decides it has to do something regarding Silkiah and its cozy relationship with Charis (which is hurting its economy and its ability to recover from the Jihad)? I really find it hard to imagine that Duchairn will be able to restore the Church's moral standing within 20 years to such a degree that when the truth is finally revealed, the Church's rejection of this truth will be accepted by any except the Temple Loyalists.

There are lots of people, including lots of Charisians, who are going to have their cages severely rattled by the great reveal... It won't even occur to them to connect this subject to Clyntahn's bad behavior any more than a pope's bad behavior does anything to undermine a Christian's belief in the Bible.

Don

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n7axw wrote:

thanatos wrote:
I was thinking about the... complicated relationship between Israel and Germany today, two generations and 70 years removed from the Holocaust. I must admit that the Germans (to their credit) went out of their way to atone and make amends following WWII, seeking to compensate Holocaust survivors and the State of Israel as a whole in order to establish diplomatic ties with it and be forgiven. And it should be noted that many in Israel at the time (this was in 1951-2) had adamantly opposed any agreement with Germany because they could not forgive the Germans for what was done to them. Even the preliminary Reparations Agreement was protested. There is a famous picture with Menachem Begin (who become prime minister 25 years later) above a sign that reads: "Our honor shall not be sold for money; Our blood shall not be atoned by goods. We shall wipe out the disgrace!"

Yet the first generation has all but died out and the second generation (the children of the Perpetrators in Germany and the survivors in Israel) are getting old. I have read many articles about how this generation in Germany had to come to terms with the sins of their parents, and much of Germany's present attitude to Holocaust remembrance and opposition to any public display of Nazi symbols comes from that generation. The same generation in Israel had to confront the other side of that coin, and reject the ghetto and victim mentality of the diaspora. Yet it is the third generation that is the greatest present concern. This is a generation of young 20- and 30-year-old Germans who would like to view their country's horrific past as ancient history that has little effect on their lives today. In particular, they would like to able to criticize Israel as they criticize any other country without accusations of hypocrisy. It has taken Germans 70 years to reach this point (and the most recent election proves that the far right can still rear its ugly head, even in Germany).

So even if Duchairn is the Konrad Adenauer of the Church of God Awaiting, the scope of the Church's crimes is such that I seriously doubt any successor to Duchairn will be able to embrace the sort of mindset I mentioned. But that's within the Church itself and among the ardent Temple Loyalists. Outside perceptions would be hard to change for a long time. If Israelis could continue to be suspicious of Germany even in the 1990s (following reunification), I would assume that Charisian, Siddarmarkians and any other mainland reformists would continue to be equally suspicious of Mother Church, despite Duchairn's reforms. So what happens the first time the Church has a disagreement with the Kingdom of Dohlar over its willingness to embrace Charisian innovations in order to build its own steam-powered warships? How long before Desnair decides it has to do something regarding Silkiah and its cozy relationship with Charis (which is hurting its economy and its ability to recover from the Jihad)? I really find it hard to imagine that Duchairn will be able to restore the Church's moral standing within 20 years to such a degree that when the truth is finally revealed, the Church's rejection of this truth will be accepted by any except the Temple Loyalists.

There are lots of people, including lots of Charisians, who are going to have their cages severely rattled by the great reveal... It won't even occur to them to connect this subject to Clyntahn's bad behavior any more than a pope's bad behavior does anything to undermine a Christian's belief in the Bible.

Don

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I agree that some Safeholdians and even some Charisians will be able to separate the Church from their faith in God. But remember one of the prevalent themes that many of the doubters have had throughout the series. That the Church of God Awaiting spent centuries teaching the laity that the Church is God's bride, that faith in God and "Archangels" (and in the Writ) are permanently linked to the Church (as the mortal custodian of God's holy word). Yet we read of many people who ask themselves how God could allow such horrible things to occur in his name, people like Patyr Wylsynn and Nynian Rychter. For someone to be able to divorce the unreformed Church's actions from their faith in God, they would need to be able to tell themselves faith in God and trust in the Church are not one and the same.

Moreover, you should remember that it would be the Church of Charis who reveals the truth and make it the official position of the Church there. Charisians always had more trust in their homegrown clergy than in the "foreign" clergymen that were sent from Zion. That was, after all, the objective of the Brethren of St. Zhernou and why Clyntahn had always been suspicious of the "reliability" of the Charisian clergy. And textev indicates that the Church of Charis engaged in "missionary" work among the Desnairian POWs, in an attempt to exploit the sense of abandonment many of them felt after being defeated by "godless heretics" when they were the Church's (and God's) champions. I don't think Charis stopped there either - I'd expect them to start working on the Siddarmarkian clergy as well. So when the Church of Charis begins preaching the truth / heresy, who among their parishioners will feel so betrayed that they not only reject the truth but also decide to adhere to the Church in Zion? Only those who are willing to rationalize the Church's atrocities during the Jihad or those who willfully choose to ignore those atrocities.

The problem here is in asking people to throw away their Bible. I certainly wouldn't throw out mine even though the world view of the Bible is pre-scientific.

What I'm pointing out here is that this is going to be much harder than you think. If you doubt that look at the tilt between modernism and fundamentalism in real life...and nobody in real life is trying to assert that the Bible has been deliberately fabricated.

The people of Safehold face a much sticker problem with the notion that not only the Writ is fradulent, but so are the archangels themselves.

This is something that is going to take generations to deal with. People who "come around with the truth" are likely to receive a cold welcome for a l-o-o-ng time.

Don

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n7axw wrote:The problem here is in asking people to throw away their Bible. I certainly wouldn't throw out mine even though the world view of the Bible is pre-scientific.

What I'm pointing out here is that this is going to be much harder than you think. If you doubt that look at the tilt between modernism and fundamentalism in real life...and nobody in real life is trying to assert that the Bible has been deliberately fabricated.

The people of Safehold face a much sticker problem with the notion that not only the Writ is fradulent, but so are the archangels themselves.

This is something that is going to take generations to deal with. People who "come around with the truth" are likely to receive a cold welcome for a l-o-o-ng time.

Don

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The Inner Circle doesn't have generations. That is why the original plan of incremental changes and gradual interpretation of the Writ and gradually increasing the number of the people who know the truth was abandoned in favor of the technological approach. The creation of the steam powered battleships and observation balloons (which will eventually transform into zeppelins) was intended as a way to accelerate the erosion of the Proscriptions of Jwo-jeng, by forcing all the secular realms to embrace all the innovations necessary for survival. Not even Siddarmark can afford to ignore these innovations, as Merlin comments that even Greygohr Stohnar would have to worry about some genuine disagreement between him and Charis escalating into all out war. This is doubly true about Dohlar, which was defeated in the Jihad by land and sea.

At its foundation, the purpose of the Holy Writ is to stifle innovation and free thought, providing divinely sanctioned solutions and miraculous explanations for every possible problem and phenomenon humans might be curious about. Charis is already in the process of building up a cadre of true scientists who are willing to question established wisdom while the church has its own maverick inventors who do the same (whom Clyntahn was preparing to purge once he no longer needed them). Then there's the enforcement mechanisms of the Church that were supposed to actively discourage free thinking and innovation. Yet now those enforcement mechanisms are gone everywhere on Safehold where the Church's political authority is absent (and it will be several years before the reformed Inquisition has the means to enforce the full vigor of the Proscriptions anywhere that authority still exists). And Charis is going to be building thousands of steam powered merchant ships (thus increasing trade, economic opportunities and standard of living) and hundreds of steam powered warships (to ensure that its never threatened with annihilation ever again). Siddarmark and Dohlar at the very least will follow suit and none of the other secular realms can afford to turn back the technological clock to the pre-Jihad period, if only for the sake of survival (which was the whole point of "Shan-wei's doorknockers").

So even if Safehold will be told that their faith was built on a lie and the Holy Writ itself was deliberately fabricated, and even if a large number of Safeholdians reject this notion because their faith in "Archangel" is so central to who they are, could they also reject Charisian innovation and notions of free thinking and freedom of conscience? If they are so devout as to believe that the ends justify the means, could they commit atrocities like the ones Merlin fears (strapping kids with suicide vests) without forcibly linking themselves to the atrocities of the inquisition?

thanatos wrote:

n7axw wrote:The problem here is in asking people to throw away their Bible. I certainly wouldn't throw out mine even though the world view of the Bible is pre-scientific.

What I'm pointing out here is that this is going to be much harder than you think. If you doubt that look at the tilt between modernism and fundamentalism in real life...and nobody in real life is trying to assert that the Bible has been deliberately fabricated.

The people of Safehold face a much sticker problem with the notion that not only the Writ is fradulent, but so are the archangels themselves.

This is something that is going to take generations to deal with. People who "come around with the truth" are likely to receive a cold welcome for a l-o-o-ng time.

Don

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The Inner Circle doesn't have generations. That is why the original plan of incremental changes and gradual interpretation of the Writ and gradually increasing the number of the people who know the truth was abandoned in favor of the technological approach. The creation of the steam powered battleships and observation balloons (which will eventually transform into zeppelins) was intended as a way to accelerate the erosion of the Proscriptions of Jwo-jeng, by forcing all the secular realms to embrace all the innovations necessary for survival. Not even Siddarmark can afford to ignore these innovations, as Merlin comments that even Greygohr Stohnar would have to worry about some genuine disagreement between him and Charis escalating into all out war. This is doubly true about Dohlar, which was defeated in the Jihad by land and sea.

At its foundation, the purpose of the Holy Writ is to stifle innovation and free thought, providing divinely sanctioned solutions and miraculous explanations for every possible problem and phenomenon humans might be curious about. Charis is already in the process of building up a cadre of true scientists who are willing to question established wisdom while the church has its own maverick inventors who do the same (whom Clyntahn was preparing to purge once he no longer needed them). Then there's the enforcement mechanisms of the Church that were supposed to actively discourage free thinking and innovation. Yet now those enforcement mechanisms are gone everywhere on Safehold where the Church's political authority is absent (and it will be several years before the reformed Inquisition has the means to enforce the full vigor of the Proscriptions anywhere that authority still exists). And Charis is going to be building thousands of steam powered merchant ships (thus increasing trade, economic opportunities and standard of living) and hundreds of steam powered warships (to ensure that its never threatened with annihilation ever again). Siddarmark and Dohlar at the very least will follow suit and none of the other secular realms can afford to turn back the technological clock to the pre-Jihad period, if only for the sake of survival (which was the whole point of "Shan-wei's doorknockers").

So even if Safehold will be told that their faith was built on a lie and the Holy Writ itself was deliberately fabricated, and even if a large number of Safeholdians reject this notion because their faith in "Archangel" is so central to who they are, could they also reject Charisian innovation and notions of free thinking and freedom of conscience? If they are so devout as to believe that the ends justify the means, could they commit atrocities like the ones Merlin fears (strapping kids with suicide vests) without forcibly linking themselves to the atrocities of the inquisition?

I don't know how David has the story gamed out in future books. But as I understand it, the Gbabba aren't going to show up tomorrow. In fact my understanding is that they won't show up at all since they don't leave their own area except in pursuit of interlopers they perceive as trespassers. The concern Shanwei and others expressed was that Safehold would stumble across them unaware after having made it back into space.

That being said, the inner circle is not short on time and can afford gradualism. There is no need for excessive hurry. For the devout which describes a strong percentage of Safehold's people, their faith is indeed at the core of who they are. As a commited Christian, I understand that and to a strong degree empathize with it. One cannot expect to change that in a moment.

As for Zhasphar Clyntahn and his corrupt cronies, they no more truly represent the heart of the COGA's people than someone like Phelps would truly represent Christians or bin Laden represents Islam.

What I expect to happen is that this next war will break the hold of the proscriptions in the same way that Zion's political and theological monopoly was broken by the last war. Safehold will gradually evolve into a world of secularists, true believers, a multiplicity of sects and many of the same tensions we see in our own society. Some people will adjust just fine and others will cling to what they fondly remember as an ideal past. In the midst of all of this science will develop and spread and technology will advance with the occasional boost from Owl.

Many believers will come to grips with the reality that there are parts of the Writ that are no longer useful just as I, as a Christian, recognise that there are parts of the Bible that are not nearly as useful as other parts. All of that is going to take time and the process will be messy. There will be periods of reaction even while progress is happening. Looking over the last century or so of our own story should illustrate that very well.

Don

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n7axw wrote:
<Snip>

That being said, the inner circle is not short on time and can afford gradualism. There is no need for excessive hurry.

The Inner Circle is short on time given the "prophecy of Schueler" that Patyr told them about, that the "Archangels" will return 1,000 years after the "Creation" to check upon God's plan. In ATSOT, Merlin said that this was the reason they were working on the King Haarahld ships when they were such a waste of resources in time of war. So while the Inner Circle has time before the Gbaba might actually show up, Merlin says that they still have to deal with the OBS and whatever wakes up 20 years later beneath the Temple.

n7axw wrote:
For the devout which describes a strong percentage of Safehold's people, their faith is indeed at the core of who they are. As a committed Christian, I understand that and to a strong degree empathize with it. One cannot expect to change that in a moment.

As for Zhasphar Clyntahn and his corrupt cronies, they no more truly represent the heart of the COGA's people than someone like Phelps would truly represent Christians or bin Laden represents Islam.

As a Jew who was far more devout as a child in Israel, I understand how central faith is to people's identity, having contended with far too many relatives who will acknowledge the corruption of a governmental religious institution while still telling me that I should still adhere to the rules of dictated to me by that institution. Yet that corruption have contributed to the loss of faith in that institution, with increasing numbers of Israelis trying to avoid going through it for marriages and divorces and many businesses no longer caring about the lost revenue from revocation of their Kashrut certificates. Add to that the usual horror stories of women whose husbands won't grant them divorce decrees (a "Gett") in Israel and being forced to stay married to such a man for years on end with the Rabbinate, the halachic courts and prominent individual rabbis refusing to change the rules out of spiritual cowardice and you get a firm association between corrupt practices and the faith.

n7axw wrote:
Safehold will gradually evolve into a world of secularists, true believers, a multiplicity of sects and many of the same tensions we see in our own society. Some people will adjust just fine and others will cling to what they fondly remember as an ideal past. In the midst of all of this science will develop and spread and technology will advance with the occasional boost from Owl.

One can hope. Yet truly devout orthodox Jews have tried to maintain their "godly" society by tightening the restrictions they impose on their people and maintaining their isolation from the surrounding secular society. Yet they can't maintain their physical separation from the secular world, whether here in the US or in Israel as there is no wall to the ghetto they once had in Europe. And despite their attempt to establish a "spiritual" ghetto (by rejecting many modern devices and communication systems - including the internet), they can't really avoid contact with the rest of society around them. In Israel, they also try to force the public space to be spiritually purer, going after offensive billboards and ads, segregating the sexes on buses and on certain sidewalks, attempts to stop soccer matches on Sabbath and many other ways. Some have been successful while others have not.

So Temple Loyalist communities could try to isolate themselves from these innovations (which they already did after the Schism began), by refusing contact with anyone who trucks with the proscribed technology and putting up walls against the outside world. But they would quickly become irrelevant to the surrounding society and would find it difficult to survive economically. And they can forget about invaded the public spaces with the true faith without political or economic power. With 2 entire generations to work with, Temple Loyalist communities wouldn't stand a chance in maintaining their isolated societies, as their kids look to the outside world that is passing them by rapidly. But again, they don't have that sort of time before the return of the "Archangels".

n7axw wrote:
Many believers will come to grips with the reality that there are parts of the Writ that are no longer useful just as I, as a Christian, recognise that there are parts of the Bible that are not nearly as useful as other parts. All of that is going to take time and the process will be messy. There will be periods of reaction even while progress is happening. Looking over the last century or so of our own story should illustrate that very well.

Don

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I think RFC has mentioned that the Writ's suggestions and injunctions on geography, agriculture, animal husbandry, psychology and medicine are always useful and always work when applied correctly (because they are based on real science). That was always one layer of the deception that would always be difficult to refute or render useless because unlike the bible, the Writ was not written by bronze age religious leaders who had (at best) an imperfect understanding of the natural world around them. Nor are there any competing texts or prehistoric cultures to show that the word of God was not promulgated simultaneously around the world (which is was in Safehold's case). So the Inner Circle has no easy solution from that angle. Where they do have a solution is in the shift from religious to secular rule, whereby the Church is no longer the sole font of all knowledge. It means hospitals, schools and universities will no longer see Church interference in their administrations and curricula. Once people see secular experts teaching them about the world from an analytical, scientific perspective rather than priests expounding rote knowledge, they will likely begin that switch to a more scientifically-grounded mindset.

thanatos wrote:

n7axw wrote:
<Snip>

That being said, the inner circle is not short on time and can afford gradualism. There is no need for excessive hurry.

The Inner Circle is short on time given the "prophecy of Schueler" that Patyr told them about, that the "Archangels" will return 1,000 years after the "Creation" to check upon God's plan. In ATSOT, Merlin said that this was the reason they were working on the King Haarahld ships when they were such a waste of resources in time of war. So while the Inner Circle has time before the Gbaba might actually show up, Merlin says that they still have to deal with the OBS and whatever wakes up 20 years later beneath the Temple.

n7axw wrote:
For the devout which describes a strong percentage of Safehold's people, their faith is indeed at the core of who they are. As a committed Christian, I understand that and to a strong degree empathize with it. One cannot expect to change that in a moment.

As for Zhasphar Clyntahn and his corrupt cronies, they no more truly represent the heart of the COGA's people than someone like Phelps would truly represent Christians or bin Laden represents Islam.

As a Jew who was far more devout as a child in Israel, I understand how central faith is to people's identity, having contended with far too many relatives who will acknowledge the corruption of a governmental religious institution while still telling me that I should still adhere to the rules of dictated to me by that institution. Yet that corruption have contributed to the loss of faith in that institution, with increasing numbers of Israelis trying to avoid going through it for marriages and divorces and many businesses no longer caring about the lost revenue from revocation of their Kashrut certificates. Add to that the usual horror stories of women whose husbands won't grant them divorce decrees (a "Gett") in Israel and being forced to stay married to such a man for years on end with the Rabbinate, the halachic courts and prominent individual rabbis refusing to change the rules out of spiritual cowardice and you get a firm association between corrupt practices and the faith.

n7axw wrote:
Safehold will gradually evolve into a world of secularists, true believers, a multiplicity of sects and many of the same tensions we see in our own society. Some people will adjust just fine and others will cling to what they fondly remember as an ideal past. In the midst of all of this science will develop and spread and technology will advance with the occasional boost from Owl.

One can hope. Yet truly devout orthodox Jews have tried to maintain their "godly" society by tightening the restrictions they impose on their people and maintaining their isolation from the surrounding secular society. Yet they can't maintain their physical separation from the secular world, whether here in the US or in Israel as there is no wall to the ghetto they once had in Europe. And despite their attempt to establish a "spiritual" ghetto (by rejecting many modern devices and communication systems - including the internet), they can't really avoid contact with the rest of society around them. In Israel, they also try to force the public space to be spiritually purer, going after offensive billboards and ads, segregating the sexes on buses and on certain sidewalks, attempts to stop soccer matches on Sabbath and many other ways. Some have been successful while others have not.

So Temple Loyalist communities could try to isolate themselves from these innovations (which they already did after the Schism began), by refusing contact with anyone who trucks with the proscribed technology and putting up walls against the outside world. But they would quickly become irrelevant to the surrounding society and would find it difficult to survive economically. And they can forget about invaded the public spaces with the true faith without political or economic power. With 2 entire generations to work with, Temple Loyalist communities wouldn't stand a chance in maintaining their isolated societies, as their kids look to the outside world that is passing them by rapidly. But again, they don't have that sort of time before the return of the "Archangels".

n7axw wrote:
Many believers will come to grips with the reality that there are parts of the Writ that are no longer useful just as I, as a Christian, recognise that there are parts of the Bible that are not nearly as useful as other parts. All of that is going to take time and the process will be messy. There will be periods of reaction even while progress is happening. Looking over the last century or so of our own story should illustrate that very well.

Don

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I think RFC has mentioned that the Writ's suggestions and injunctions on geography, agriculture, animal husbandry, psychology and medicine are always useful and always work when applied correctly (because they are based on real science). That was always one layer of the deception that would always be difficult to refute or render useless because unlike the bible, the Writ was not written by bronze age religious leaders who had (at best) an imperfect understanding of the natural world around them. Nor are there any competing texts or prehistoric cultures to show that the word of God was not promulgated simultaneously around the world (which is was in Safehold's case). So the Inner Circle has no easy solution from that angle. Where they do have a solution is in the shift from religious to secular rule, whereby the Church is no longer the sole font of all knowledge. It means hospitals, schools and universities will no longer see Church interference in their administrations and curricula. Once people see secular experts teaching them about the world from an analytical, scientific perspective rather than priests expounding rote knowledge, they will likely begin that switch to a more scientifically-grounded mindset.

Nice post, Thanatos. At the risk of starting a discussion that really doesn't belong here and one that I really don't intend to engage in, I am deeply worried about our evangelicals and fundamentalists for the same reasons you mentioned above. Further, I worry about the long term damage they are doing to the church's witness and credibility. As for my opinion about mixing religion and politics, read my byline...

Don

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