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The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...

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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by thanatos   » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:40 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Nice post, Thanatos. At the risk of starting a discussion that really doesn't belong here and one that I really don't intend to engage in, I am deeply worried about our evangelicals and fundamentalists for the same reasons you mentioned above. Further, I worry about the long term damage they are doing to the church's witness and credibility. As for my opinion about mixing religion and politics, read my byline...

Don

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You are right to worry for those reasons (and I agree with your byline). But that is exactly my original point about Church of God Awaiting and how it addresses its sins and and its failure to deal with the corruption that ultimately led to the rise of Zhaspahr Clyntahn and the Jihad. Just as Evangelicals in the US today are willing to trade Christian principles for political power and influence in the name of expediency, the Church and Vicarite on Safehold did the same for over 200 local years. Clyntahn was able to gain the support of many within the Church by covering up their crimes and blackmailing when they proved less than tractable.

So while Duchairn has dealt with the Church's corruption by holding all of Clyntahn's blackmailing victims and outright supporters accountable for their actions, I find it hard to believe that he will be able to restore the Church's moral authority within 20 years. After all, Safehold is not yet the fast-paced world of 20th century Earth and therefore generational feuds are more likely to persist than the sort of reconciliation between descendants of ancient warring factions or at least youthful apathy towards such ancient grudges. Again, I'm thinking in terms of Israeli-German relations today, where many young people on both sides treat the Holocaust as ancient history that has little impact on their current lives.

So how will all the survivors of the Sword of Schueler in Siddarmark feel towards the Church 20 years after the Jihad? Will they be able to truly divorce their faith in the "Archangels" and God from the actions of their fallible mortal stewards? Or will suspicion of the Church linger? Remember that Stefyny Mahlard learned to fear anyone in a purple cassock or an AOG uniform. For many, Duchairn's reforms are too little and too late, especially for those who lost everything in the Jihad. For those in power, there will always be fear of returning to the pre-Jihad situation where the Church could dethrone any ruler (and they will be disinclined to return to that sort of situation). And given how deep in debt the Church is, what will they have to work with in order to make amends?
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:16 am

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thanatos wrote:
n7axw wrote:
Nice post, Thanatos. At the risk of starting a discussion that really doesn't belong here and one that I really don't intend to engage in, I am deeply worried about our evangelicals and fundamentalists for the same reasons you mentioned above. Further, I worry about the long term damage they are doing to the church's witness and credibility. As for my opinion about mixing religion and politics, read my byline...

Don

-


You are right to worry for those reasons (and I agree with your byline). But that is exactly my original point about Church of God Awaiting and how it addresses its sins and and its failure to deal with the corruption that ultimately led to the rise of Zhaspahr Clyntahn and the Jihad. Just as Evangelicals in the US today are willing to trade Christian principles for political power and influence in the name of expediency, the Church and Vicarite on Safehold did the same for over 200 local years. Clyntahn was able to gain the support of many within the Church by covering up their crimes and blackmailing when they proved less than tractable.

So while Duchairn has dealt with the Church's corruption by holding all of Clyntahn's blackmailing victims and outright supporters accountable for their actions, I find it hard to believe that he will be able to restore the Church's moral authority within 20 years. After all, Safehold is not yet the fast-paced world of 20th century Earth and therefore generational feuds are more likely to persist than the sort of reconciliation between descendants of ancient warring factions or at least youthful apathy towards such ancient grudges. Again, I'm thinking in terms of Israeli-German relations today, where many young people on both sides treat the Holocaust as ancient history that has little impact on their current lives.

So how will all the survivors of the Sword of Schueler in Siddarmark feel towards the Church 20 years after the Jihad? Will they be able to truly divorce their faith in the "Archangels" and God from the actions of their fallible mortal stewards? Or will suspicion of the Church linger? Remember that Stefyny Mahlard learned to fear anyone in a purple cassock or an AOG uniform. For many, Duchairn's reforms are too little and too late, especially for those who lost everything in the Jihad. For those in power, there will always be fear of returning to the pre-Jihad situation where the Church could dethrone any ruler (and they will be disinclined to return to that sort of situation). And given how deep in debt the Church is, what will they have to work with in order to make amends?

It might be argued that the Church gave up its moral authority when it destroyed Alexandria. By executing people who disagree, they guaranteed someone like Clyntahn would take the power of the Inquisition and what he did. The people of Siddermark can see what Langhorne did to Shan-wei as paralleling what happened to them.....once the Truth is revealed. Charisians or some of them at least will also see the parallels. It might help to know just how much support Shan-wei provided Charis to survive.

If all the records of Board discussions are made public and Safeholdians can witness those pre-Alexandria strike deliberations in Zion. Experience the tech in the Temple as the "archangels" deliberate. They will see just what their Church did to those that disagreed with their man made church. See footage of the terraforming, of the "archangels" in Alexandria working with their colonists. Expose it all and let Safeholdians decide.

Until the Reveal, Duchairn would have to discard too much of the Writ to reform the CoGA enough to be ables to truly earn its moral authority.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by thanatos   » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:28 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
thanatos wrote:
You are right to worry for those reasons (and I agree with your byline). But that is exactly my original point about Church of God Awaiting and how it addresses its sins and and its failure to deal with the corruption that ultimately led to the rise of Zhaspahr Clyntahn and the Jihad. Just as Evangelicals in the US today are willing to trade Christian principles for political power and influence in the name of expediency, the Church and Vicarite on Safehold did the same for over 200 local years. Clyntahn was able to gain the support of many within the Church by covering up their crimes and blackmailing when they proved less than tractable.

So while Duchairn has dealt with the Church's corruption by holding all of Clyntahn's blackmailing victims and outright supporters accountable for their actions, I find it hard to believe that he will be able to restore the Church's moral authority within 20 years. After all, Safehold is not yet the fast-paced world of 20th century Earth and therefore generational feuds are more likely to persist than the sort of reconciliation between descendants of ancient warring factions or at least youthful apathy towards such ancient grudges. Again, I'm thinking in terms of Israeli-German relations today, where many young people on both sides treat the Holocaust as ancient history that has little impact on their current lives.

So how will all the survivors of the Sword of Schueler in Siddarmark feel towards the Church 20 years after the Jihad? Will they be able to truly divorce their faith in the "Archangels" and God from the actions of their fallible mortal stewards? Or will suspicion of the Church linger? Remember that Stefyny Mahlard learned to fear anyone in a purple cassock or an AOG uniform. For many, Duchairn's reforms are too little and too late, especially for those who lost everything in the Jihad. For those in power, there will always be fear of returning to the pre-Jihad situation where the Church could dethrone any ruler (and they will be disinclined to return to that sort of situation). And given how deep in debt the Church is, what will they have to work with in order to make amends?


It might be argued that the Church gave up its moral authority when it destroyed Alexandria. By executing people who disagree, they guaranteed someone like Clyntahn would take the power of the Inquisition and what he did. The people of Siddermark can see what Langhorne did to Shan-wei as paralleling what happened to them.....once the Truth is revealed. Charisians or some of them at least will also see the parallels. It might help to know just how much support Shan-wei provided Charis to survive.

If all the records of Board discussions are made public and Safeholdians can witness those pre-Alexandria strike deliberations in Zion. Experience the tech in the Temple as the "archangels" deliberate. They will see just what their Church did to those that disagreed with their man made church. See footage of the terraforming, of the "archangels" in Alexandria working with their colonists. Expose it all and let Safeholdians decide.

Until the Reveal, Duchairn would have to discard too much of the Writ to reform the CoGA enough to be ables to truly earn its moral authority.


Oh it certainly gave up that moral authority when they bombarded Alexandria but who the hell remembers that? For everyone on Safehold its all ancient history told from a highly biased and "revised" historical perspective. And for all the openness of Charisians, they still believe that story to be true, despite Archbishop Maikel's sermons on how Shan-wei wasn't evil to begin with. What they'd really need is a sharp and sarcastic literary mind who paraphrases Mark Twain works: "I have no special regard for [Shan-wei]; but I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against [her]. It may even be that I lean a little [her] way, on account of [her] not having a fair show." Charisians and all Safeholdians not only need to think critically but also to learn not take their faith as seriously as a medieval society does.

Also remember, that Clyntahn only broke after seeing the file footage Merlin and Nimue showed him because he'd seen records like that before. Most Safeholdians haven't had that luxury so it might not work until its been widely disseminated and that the Church in Zion had confirmed that it looks like the mystical records of the "Archangels". They may deny it just because they fear the truth.

Duchairn hasn't rejected the Punishment because it's firmly entrenched in Writ for him to dare make such a change to the holiest document on Safehold. But his problem is not just the changes he needs to make (and those he dares not make) in Church law to ensure that his reforms stick. Reform, justice and accountability are good first steps, but that still leave the fragmentation of the Church's authority, the animus of Siddarmark and Charis, the debts of the Church, the refugee problem and the Mighty Host. And given how much the Church needs to atone for, it's difficult for me to believe that Duchairn could return to the status quo prior to the Jihad. I just can't see how anyone could believe the Church even 20 years down the road, when people are still walking around with missing limbs and extremities or who lost their entire family to the Sword of Schueler. Couple that with the inevitable economic dominance of Charis, Siddarmark and even Dohlar, and the Church may have even less credibility than we think.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:33 pm

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The more I think on it, the more I like the idea of simply playing the recorded deliberation for the common Safeholdians in The Temple. Many priests will be familiar with similar records. There is still a fundemental trust of "divine" servitors. The tech that will show those records are servitors of the Temple. Having someone testify under the Stone of Schueler that the records are accurate depictions of what actually happened would ease suspicions.

Now to gain control of the Temple and OBS...
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by Hardyng   » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:45 am

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Now when it became clear for everyone that Church was for so long time in hands of 'evil', Temple will never gain as much power as it had, not matter what Duchairn will do. Before, Church was 'pure' and 'always right', now people will be more flexible in opposing Temple; if it was wrong, so wrong once, why not again?

Before, it was easier to be faithful children of God; all you had to do was obey the Temple. Now, everyone must start think for themselves, as it was proved that Temple can be wrong. Maybe people will even start thinking that God stripped Temple from its privilages in this war, as Temple failed its responsibilities; so some parts of Holy Writ are outdated.

I think that next we see the Temple, it will be very weak organisation, trying to keep as much power as possible. Trying to undo its actions, they will head into more supporting role for the world, trying to show Charis and Siddarmark that it's changed, only to fail miserably.

Still, I don't know what Duchairn role will be.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by isaac_newton   » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:11 pm

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PeterZ wrote:The more I think on it, the more I like the idea of simply playing the recorded deliberation for the common Safeholdians in The Temple. Many priests will be familiar with similar records. There is still a fundemental trust of "divine" servitors. The tech that will show those records are servitors of the Temple. Having someone testify under the Stone of Schueler that the records are accurate depictions of what actually happened would ease suspicions.

Now to gain control of the Temple and OBS...


well - IIRC hardly anyone knows about the Stone of Schueler so i'm not sure that's going to carry much weight at all with the general population!
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:37 pm

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isaac_newton wrote:
PeterZ wrote:The more I think on it, the more I like the idea of simply playing the recorded deliberation for the common Safeholdians in The Temple. Many priests will be familiar with similar records. There is still a fundemental trust of "divine" servitors. The tech that will show those records are servitors of the Temple. Having someone testify under the Stone of Schueler that the records are accurate depictions of what actually happened would ease suspicions.

Now to gain control of the Temple and OBS...


well - IIRC hardly anyone knows about the Stone of Schueler so i'm not sure that's going to carry much weight at all with the general population!

Not quite. The Stone was known to have been lost after Saint Everard(?)'s death. Prior to that it was quite well known. Using it is like Queen Elizabeth I of England calling upon Arthur's descendant wielding Excalibur to help fight the Spanish Armada or push back the Spaniards from the Low Countries.

Recall that Safehold venerates the written records of their history. The Writ and Testimonies are after all the most important written records there are. Having a "divine" record backed by a documented divine servitor is pretty much a slam dunk for Safeholdians to believe.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by n7axw   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:11 am

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Hi Peter,

Perhaps not a slam dunk for everybody. There are going to be lots of people who refuse to surrender the Writ and their faith no matter how solidly something like the Stone authenticates the truth.

What's coming up is necessary, but it is going to be hard.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:34 pm

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n7axw wrote:Hi Peter,

Perhaps not a slam dunk for everybody. There are going to be lots of people who refuse to surrender the Writ and their faith no matter how solidly something like the Stone authenticates the truth.

What's coming up is necessary, but it is going to be hard.

Don

-

Of course it is, Don. Yet what you just posted requires Safeholdians' personal decisions to be made. They have to decide between the different media the archangels are passing their thoughts down to them. The Writ is one medium. The image records are another. The Stone validates the veracity of the latter. Absent the Stone, all those images are simply demonic tricks.

Only after the images are accepted as true can Safeholdians choose between the messages contained in the Writ or the images. My point was that the images will be a slam dunk to be accepted as true with the aid of the Stone. The rest is up to the people, who will as you post be divided.
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Re: The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...
Post by shayvaan   » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:38 pm

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The interesting thing about this conversation is that everyone is seeing the similarities to past situations, but most are missing the main difference.

The difference is between pre WW2 Germany and the pre jihad COGA.
Germany is a nation and one that has not always been popular with its neighbors (particularly, France and Poland). The COGA on the other hand has been "The Bride of God" for close to a thousand years. Yes, there have been individual cases of corruption in the church (Clyntahn being the latest and the worst), but she has always been "God's Bride."
RFC has shown us this again and again. The leader of the Clans west of Chisholm, the Charisian ambassador to Siddarmark and many others (including the mobs in Zion itself) made a real difference, in their own minds and hearts, between the church on the one hand and Clyntahn and the Inquisition on the other.
Even in the EOC there are people who make that distinction, like Sharlyan's own first councilor.
So, yes, aside from Siddarmark and the EOC (and probably North Harchong, although for different reasons, Duchairn and his allies, could conceivably show Safehold the "True Face of the Church."
It would be a weaker hold, no doubt about it, but it would be there.
Strong enough for another jihad? Probably not by itself, but throw in a possible Archangel and all bets are off, NTM that the EOC will have a lot of resentment for it on a national level as well, much like the Solarian League resents Manticore because of how Manticore dominates the carrying trade in the League.
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