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Why didn't the group of 4 just promote Peter Wilson?

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Why didn't the group of 4 just promote Peter Wilson?
Post by iranuke   » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:36 pm

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I've been re-reading the series again and in the first book the Go4 were talking about how they could not bring Peter back and replace him. I've seen it before, you have someone who you can't fire so they get promoted to an out of the way job and someone else is put in to fix what they did wrong. Why did the Go4 not just promote Peter to Bishop somewhere and replace him with someone who would do the job the way they wanted it done?
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Re: Why didn't the group of 4 just promote Peter Wilson?
Post by Bluesqueak   » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:01 am

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iranuke wrote:I've been re-reading the series again and in the first book the Go4 were talking about how they could not bring Peter back and replace him. I've seen it before, you have someone who you can't fire so they get promoted to an out of the way job and someone else is put in to fix what they did wrong. Why did the Go4 not just promote Peter to Bishop somewhere and replace him with someone who would do the job the way they wanted it done?


Because at this point, the Wyllsyns were still a powerful 'bloc' within Zion. Promoting Paityr to Bishop would just give them more influence - another powerful Wyllsyn Schulerite - which was the last thing Zhasper Clyntain wanted.

Besides, the reason Paityr had been sent to Charis in the first place was to 'promote him to an out of the way job'. There's only so many times you can use this trick to get rid of the annoyingly competent and honest little git. ;)
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Re: Why didn't the group of 4 just promote Peter Wilson?
Post by iranuke   » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:49 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:Because at this point, the Wyllsyns were still a powerful 'bloc' within Zion. Promoting Paityr to Bishop would just give them more influence - another powerful Wyllsyn Schulerite - which was the last thing Zhasper Clyntain wanted.

Besides, the reason Paityr had been sent to Charis in the first place was to 'promote him to an out of the way job'. There's only so many times you can use this trick to get rid of the annoyingly competent and honest little git. ;)


First, a bishop isn't that far up in this church and you promote him so that the "powerful" Wyllsyn clan can't complain about you moving him from his position.
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Re: Why didn't the group of 4 just promote Peter Wilson?
Post by Bluesqueak   » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:08 am

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iranuke wrote:
First, a bishop isn't that far up in this church and you promote him so that the "powerful" Wyllsyn clan can't complain about you moving him from his position.


Okay, which out of the way place does Clyntahn send him too, given that the Wyllsyns are powerful enough, at this point, for Paityr to refuse a posting? That's in textev, where in one of the later books Paityr's father explains why his Charis posting is so important that he ought to accept it.

This is a church, not a secular company. If Paityr announces that he doesn't feel 'called' to a bishopric, (but does feel 'called' to Charis) and asks for his clans' support, they can most certainly complain.

There's a fair amount of evidence in Off Armaggedon Reef that Paitryr and Maikel are very, very annoying. You might as well ask why the Church didn't promote Maikel some place else (like Sodar). The probable explanation is that, until Clyntahn decided to use little Charis as an object lesson to all the secular powers, Charis was the sort of place you sent the annoying guys to. And everyone knows it.

Which means that, if the Wyllsyns stand up in the council and suggest that the promotion was a way of getting Paityr and his inconveniently truthful reports out of Charis, the Council would be inclined to believe it. Or, as textev says, at least inclined to use it to reduce the Group of Four's power.
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Re: Why didn't the group of 4 just promote Peter Wilson?
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:31 pm

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iranuke wrote:I've been re-reading the series again and in the first book the Go4 were talking about how they could not bring Peter back and replace him. I've seen it before, you have someone who you can't fire so they get promoted to an out of the way job and someone else is put in to fix what they did wrong. Why did the Go4 not just promote Peter to Bishop somewhere and replace him with someone who would do the job the way they wanted it done?


Paityr couldn't get promoted to Bishop because he isn't married! I'm pretty sure there is textev somewhere, too obscure to remember, that Bishops have to have been married at some point so they can better understand their flock, who are overwhelmingly married.

(Ok his Vicar Uncle, the one who was in the Temple Guard, may look like a counterexample but we get so little of his background he could easily have been a widower without it coming up. Paityr is a different case, we have seen so much of him that no-one is going to believe his wife just didn't get mentioned.)
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Re: Why didn't the group of 4 just promote Peter Wilson?
Post by ayg   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:27 am

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You are right about Bishops having to be married (or widowed, like Staynair). That's mentioned in the first book, when Erayk thinks about his marriage to Adorai. But I can't find anything about Vicars having to be married.

Hauwerd was never married. I found that fact in the fourth book, right before the brothers talk about Coris arrival in Zion.

I suspect that there is no rule saying that a Vicar must have been a Bishop first.

Randomiser wrote:
Paityr couldn't get promoted to Bishop because he isn't married! I'm pretty sure there is textev somewhere, too obscure to remember, that Bishops have to have been married at some point so they can better understand their flock, who are overwhelmingly married.

(Ok his Vicar Uncle, the one who was in the Temple Guard, may look like a counterexample but we get so little of his background he could easily have been a widower without it coming up. Paityr is a different case, we have seen so much of him that no-one is going to believe his wife just didn't get mentioned.)
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Re: Why didn't the group of 4 just promote Peter Wilson?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:27 am

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ayg wrote:You are right about Bishops having to be married (or widowed, like Staynair). That's mentioned in the first book, when Erayk thinks about his marriage to Adorai. But I can't find anything about Vicars having to be married.

Hauwerd was never married. I found that fact in the fourth book, right before the brothers talk about Coris arrival in Zion.

I suspect that there is no rule saying that a Vicar must have been a Bishop first.

Randomiser wrote:
Paityr couldn't get promoted to Bishop because he isn't married! I'm pretty sure there is textev somewhere, too obscure to remember, that Bishops have to have been married at some point so they can better understand their flock, who are overwhelmingly married.

(Ok his Vicar Uncle, the one who was in the Temple Guard, may look like a counterexample but we get so little of his background he could easily have been a widower without it coming up. Paityr is a different case, we have seen so much of him that no-one is going to believe his wife just didn't get mentioned.)


I believe the Bishops who do not preside over congregations do not have to be married. Hauwerd Wylsyn was a Bishop Militant, IIRC, prior to his elevation to the Vicarate. He was never married. I suspect that Clyntahn was also never married as he rose through the ranks of the Inquisition.
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Re: Why didn't the group of 4 just promote Peter Wilson?
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:52 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:
iranuke wrote:
SNIP

There's a fair amount of evidence in Off Armaggedon Reef that Paitryr and Maikel are very, very annoying. You might as well ask why the Church didn't promote Maikel some place else (like Sodar). The probable explanation is that, until Clyntahn decided to use little Charis as an object lesson to all the secular powers, Charis was the sort of place you sent the annoying guys to. And everyone knows it.

SNIP.


I think that there may be a bit more to it in this case...

IRC Clyntahn's plans to crush Charis appeared to go a lot further back in time that originally appeared.

Therefore he may well have actually been been behind there being multiple "very, very annoying persons" there stirring the pot. Just to provide the justification he needed to move in and smash it when he so felt inclined.
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