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Tech Levels at the start of next series

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Re: Tech Levels at the start of next series
Post by thanatos   » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:35 am

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While the end of the Jihad will likely signal a reduction in military forces and a shift in resources to the civilian side of the economy, I seriously doubt Charis will lapse into complacency and not maintain a powerful army and navy (and now airforce). Nor will the pace of innovations decrease in any way and Charis is likely to be very open about the reasons why it's continuing to innovate and maintain such a large military. They wish to discourage any sort of "adventurism" either on the Temple's part or in any other nation. They are likely to help Siddarmark become a secondary naval power and conduct regular exercises with it's naval officers, with Siddarmarkian naval officers attending the Charisian naval academy and with Charisian army officers attending Siddarmark's military schools (in equal numbers). With such a firm friendship in place, the next potential naval power Dohlar is going to be hard-pressed to match that power.

What we are likely to see is a return to the pre-Jihad model of having merchant marine personnel be commissioned reserve officers and sailors (many of whom are veterans of the Jihad). We are just as likely to see many Charisian soldiers get discharged but placed on the reserve, and called in periodically for a few weeks of training to get them up to speed on new weapons, equipment and doctrine. We might even see women in uniform at this stage in various auxiliary and administrative roles, such as nurses, secretaries, clerks, drivers and possibly even in "dirtier" areas like engineering. I think we can count on Sharleyan to push for greater gender equality and to even choose promising schools girls from all around the Empire to attend her high end school in Old Charis. Graduate 6 or 7 classes of a few hundred girls like that, who enjoy a more "gender-neutral" education and you'll get several thousand elite young women with the Empress' backing who will get snatched up by Housmyn and others.

But I also think such a school (and others) would serve as a recruiting ground for the Inner Circle. The most promising kids will be sent to "advanced training" and simply disappear into the Cave. They're the ones who will form the next generation of the Inner Circle's troops and specialist, who are actually working on building up the TF technological base and acting as undercover agents throughout Safehold.
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Re: Tech Levels at the start of next series
Post by WeberFan   » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:34 am

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With a bit of creative snipping...

thanatos wrote:While the end of the Jihad will likely signal a reduction in military forces and a shift in resources to the civilian side of the economy, I seriously doubt Charis will lapse into complacency and not maintain a powerful army and navy (and now airforce). Nor will the pace of innovations decrease in any way and Charis is likely to be very open about the reasons why it's continuing to innovate and maintain such a large military. They wish to discourage any sort of "adventurism" either on the Temple's part or in any other nation.

Agreed. But I think they'll also keep a powerful military to defend against anyone who wants to stifle their innovation as "heresy." Recall that one reason why Clyntahn started his little undeclared war in the first place was because Charis was becoming just a bit too "uppity." Don't want to go down THAT path again... Deter it before it even hits the end of someone's tongue!

thanatos wrote:They are likely to help Siddarmark become a secondary naval power and conduct regular exercises with it's naval officers, with Siddarmarkian naval officers attending the Charisian naval academy and with Charisian army officers attending Siddarmark's military schools (in equal numbers). With such a firm friendship in place, the next potential naval power Dohlar is going to be hard-pressed to match that power.


Dohlar as a naval power, yes. But I was thinking of North Harchong as the "seat of true belief." Personally I see Dohlar as less of a threat than North Harchong. Perhaps not militarily, but more in terms of "unconventional warfare."

thanatos wrote:We might even see women in uniform at this stage in various auxiliary and administrative roles, such as nurses, secretaries, clerks, drivers and possibly even in "dirtier" areas like engineering. I think we can count on Sharleyan to push for greater gender equality and to even choose promising schools girls from all around the Empire to attend her high end school in Old Charis. Graduate 6 or 7 classes of a few hundred girls like that, who enjoy a more "gender-neutral" education and you'll get several thousand elite young women with the Empress' backing who will get snatched up by Housmyn and others.


Ya think? Consider this... In 20 years or so, Alanna will be just a bit younger than Sharleyan is in this arc. And considering Alanna's lineage (Caleb and Sharleyan) what do you THINK will happen if anyone - and I do mean ANYONE - tries to limit her potential! Especially if she's admitted to the Inner Circle herself (and I predict that will happen a lot earlier than it has in the past). Yep... I'm in violent agreement with you here, Thanatos.

thanatos wrote:But I also think such a school (and others) would serve as a recruiting ground for the Inner Circle. The most promising kids will be sent to "advanced training" and simply disappear into the Cave.


Maybe they'll disappear for a while, but I think many of them would reappear after a period of NEAT education. I think some of the progeny from current inner circle members will have the appropriate receptors installed by Owl and will receive a full Terran Federation level education. What will THAT do to the rate of innovation?

thanatos wrote:They're the ones who will form the next generation of the Inner Circle's troops and specialist, who are actually working on building up the TF technological base and acting as undercover agents throughout Safehold.

Yeah, but I think this will take a while... Building up some sort of "fifth column" of usurpers perhaps?
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Re: Tech Levels at the start of next series
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:05 am

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The Ladies Finishing School will be located in Corisande, not Old Charis. That sort of enterprise needs a champion that's a constant presence., not someone traveling to the other end of the Empire every 5 months. Besides who better to introduce these young ladies to the genteel art of mayhem than Nimue Chweriau? Irys really is better suited to oversee a higher education enterprise than Sharley.
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Re: Tech Levels at the start of next series
Post by Randomiser   » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:57 am

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I don't know what kind of fig-leaves they might use, but Charis will certainly keep up a very powerful, read 'absolutely dominant', Navy and the ability to conduct a war on the mainland. The visible tech upgrade rate may slow somewhat, but you can bet your boots that overwhelming advances will be gotten ready for deployment when needed. The reason for all of this , which trumps the economic and societal arguments against, is that the inner circle, i.e. the Imperial Government, positively knows there is going to be another war, probably even nastier than the last. However, even they cannot be absolutely sure when it will break out and the future of the human race depends on the EOC not being caught unprepared.
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Re: Tech Levels at the start of next series
Post by isaac_newton   » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:58 am

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PeterZ wrote:How much change is headed their way regardless of their desire? The Gbaba are coming whatever they do. It is only a matter of time before they arrive on Safehold.

Keep the disruptive innovations coming. Keep the society constantly adapting to something new. Maybe, just maybe Safehold societies can become adaptive enough, resilient enough to survive the next meeting with the Genocidal Bad Ass Biker Aliens.


Not quite sure about this... I had the feeling that the Gbaba - once the sweeps were over, went back to a state of alertness within their 'borders'.

I thought it was more that they had to make sure they had enough of an edge to go after the Gbaba?
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Re: Tech Levels at the start of next series
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:45 am

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isaac_newton wrote:
PeterZ wrote:How much change is headed their way regardless of their desire? The Gbaba are coming whatever they do. It is only a matter of time before they arrive on Safehold.

Keep the disruptive innovations coming. Keep the society constantly adapting to something new. Maybe, just maybe Safehold societies can become adaptive enough, resilient enough to survive the next meeting with the Genocidal Bad Ass Biker Aliens.


Not quite sure about this... I had the feeling that the Gbaba - once the sweeps were over, went back to a state of alertness within their 'borders'.

I thought it was more that they had to make sure they had enough of an edge to go after the Gbaba?


The initial discovery of the Gbaba was by the scouts. I suspect that the Gbaba send out scouts periodically. Running afoul of them will happen. That might be a long time down the road if Safehold remains non-tech, but they will get discovered eventually even then.
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Re: Tech Levels at the start of next series
Post by Bluesqueak   » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:12 pm

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PeterZ wrote:The initial discovery of the Gbaba was by the scouts. I suspect that the Gbaba send out scouts periodically. Running afoul of them will happen. That might be a long time down the road if Safehold remains non-tech, but they will get discovered eventually even then.


IIRC, textev is deliberately ambiguous. Langhorne took the 'the Gbaba stay within their borders until someone encroaches' view - so humanity is safe as long as they stay on Safehold. Nimue and Shan-Wei are both firmly of the opinion that humanity won't stay on Safehold, so they will be rediscovered as soon as they stray across the Gbaba's borders. Or, worse, rediscovered accidentally as the Gbaba chase down some other hapless race.

I think it's the Achultaani who do the periodic sweeps over a wide area beyond their borders.

Incidentally, I thought Gbaba stood for Great Big Alien Bad Asses. :)
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Re: Tech Levels at the start of next series
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:58 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:
PeterZ wrote:The initial discovery of the Gbaba was by the scouts. I suspect that the Gbaba send out scouts periodically. Running afoul of them will happen. That might be a long time down the road if Safehold remains non-tech, but they will get discovered eventually even then.


IIRC, textev is deliberately ambiguous. Langhorne took the 'the Gbaba stay within their borders until someone encroaches' view - so humanity is safe as long as they stay on Safehold. Nimue and Shan-Wei are both firmly of the opinion that humanity won't stay on Safehold, so they will be rediscovered as soon as they stray across the Gbaba's borders. Or, worse, rediscovered accidentally as the Gbaba chase down some other hapless race.

I think it's the Achultaani who do the periodic sweeps over a wide area beyond their borders.

Incidentally, I thought Gbaba stood for Great Big Alien Bad Asses. :)


I still like Giant Bad Ass Biker Aliens better. Ambiguity is a small fig leaf to base a life and death defense plan on.
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Re: Tech Levels at the start of next series
Post by mhicks   » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:59 am

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The tech level of Safehold will always be limited until the platform is brought down. And that got me thinking. OWL is a only a small computer in comparison to what Langhorn had at his disposal. IIRC OWL is a targeting computer with a huge info dump to hold all the info Shan-Wei was able to sneak off the ships. I was under the impression that OWL was not up to the task to take on the GBABA without expanding to a much larger computer. This being said I think it might be important to have the bombardment platform saved and the systems used to update and expand OWL's potential vs. shoot it from the sky and blow it up. I see the next arch series being on how to get the orbital platform to stand down and let them back in and dismantle it and use it to rebuild the fleet for battle. It is good to have plans and blueprints, it is another thing to have a fully functional model to go off of.

The mention of steampunk did get me excited and worried all at the same time. It would be cool but I feel it would distract from the goal of getting Humans back into space and taking back Earth, even total destruction of the Gbaba. :x (I want them DEAD! :twisted: they pissed me off taking my home world [yes I know it is just a story but it still made me very mad]). to much focus on the steam punk and the details going into it would distract from the story IMHO.

I see a stalling of inventions and progression without electricity and radios and internal combustion engines. Navigating the stars without the knowledge and understanding of magnetic fields and ions and radiation won't get them very far.
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Re: Tech Levels at the start of next series
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:08 pm

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From what David Weber said TF Intelligence believed that the Gbaba discovered the existence of the Terran Federation due to either Listening Posts set up by the Gbaba or Scouts sent out by the Gbaba into areas that the Gbaba had "visited" before.

Remember the Gbaba had visited the area controlled by the Terran Federation.

Now, as mentioned the concern about "keeping the past a secret" was that when Safehold did return to space, Safeholdean starships might accidentally stumble into areas that the Gbaba held or had Listening Posts.

isaac_newton wrote:
Not quite sure about this... I had the feeling that the Gbaba - once the sweeps were over, went back to a state of alertness within their 'borders'.

I thought it was more that they had to make sure they had enough of an edge to go after the Gbaba?
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