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Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]

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Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]
Post by Icarium   » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:02 am

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Just doing a re-read. We know the following:

#1: Kody went to talk to folks at the temple and was killed.
#2: We have a big paperweight given by Schueler and it has petabytes of data on it, including executables.
#3: You can get data on someone if they're dying (possibly dead before brain death?)

My theory is this. Kody goes to the temple. Chihiro kills him. Schueler, who by then was pulling a Duchairn, uses a headband thingy like Merlin did Nahrman and duplicates his mind before he dies. Puts him on the paperweight.

I know it's crazy. But I kinda like the image of having Kody pop up if they get access.
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Re: Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]
Post by McGuiness   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:27 pm

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Icarium wrote:Just doing a re-read. We know the following:

#1: Kody went to talk to folks at the temple and was killed.
#2: We have a big paperweight given by Schueler and it has petabytes of data on it, including executables.
#3: You can get data on someone if they're dying (possibly dead before brain death?)

My theory is this. Kody goes to the temple. Chihiro kills him. Schueler, who by then was pulling a Duchairn, uses a headband thingy like Merlin did Nahrman and duplicates his mind before he dies. Puts him on the paperweight.

I know it's crazy. But I kinda like the image of having Kody pop up if they get access.
I believe based on OAR that the first generation of Adam and Eves all had functional NEATs, as did the Archangels of course, so duplicating any of their minds wouldn't require a headband.

It's probably a safer bet to speculate that Schueler copied himself onto the paperweight. Using it would load him into the computer under the Temple and voila, an archangel has returned. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing we can't be entirely sure. Schueler clearly supported the CoGA, although in a kinder and gentler form than anything we saw during the series. Having an Archangel with that attitude show up (even digitally) with Duchairn in control would be bad news for Merlin's long range plans.

On the other hand, maybe he'll surprise us and be a full-fledged apostate! :twisted:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]
Post by MrZero   » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:14 am

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I do like the idea of a molycirc drive being worked up as an ordinary object. Who knows what's on that? A ton of stuff just folder-tree dumped from the ship's computers? Navigation data or the settings for the robot chef? Finding some dockworker's "French Etchings" and hologram movies has been worked into the antique gilded cherubs of some sacred archway might be a shock. Same for finding out some archangel or other famous person from Safehold history's been copied Dixie Flatline style and is now part of a nasty divorce settlement that neither side wants to give up- until it starts answering questions made in it's presence!
Why kill your enemies when you can kill them AND keep their souls bound under your thrall? Where did _they_ hide the money, the bodies, and the wine?
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Re: Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]
Post by thanatos   » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:03 pm

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I seriously doubt Schueler would have risked placing Cody's neural pattern on the memory module. Remember that Schueler, for all his willingness to be no sterner than necessary and his willingness to try and keep the Church free of corruption, was still Chihiro's most prominent ally and the person who figured out Pei Kau-yung's troops were up to something. Don't forget that he was probably the one who betrayed Cody's trust and who killed him. And don't forget that for all the Church's initial support of the Order of Saint Khody, they did eventually order its disbandment and ultimate destruction if its members refused to comply and order the purging of the testimonies of any and all mention of Cody Cortazar. So if anyone is on that memory module, it would be Schueler himself.

I also think that despite their victory over the Fallen, the "Archangels" still had to worry that they missed someone among the Fallen or worse, some industrial module, and that they were biding their time until all the command crew died out to strike out. They would have to have some sort of contingency plan for such an eventuality. That I think is the reason the Book of Chihiro mentions that the reappearance of "demons" will be met by a divine response. I also think that they were thinking in terms of no more than a few decades, since we know any cryo stasis system the Fallen might have manufactured could only last 150 years at most (which would be pushing it according to HFAF). I seriously doubt Chihiro and Schieler could have contemplated that the opposition had a PICA hidden away in an underground cavern, one which would only wake up 900 local years later. So we need to think in terms of a potential hi-tech threat that could emerge within no more than 100 years.
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Re: Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:15 am

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thanatos wrote:I seriously doubt Schueler would have risked placing Cody's neural pattern on the memory module. Remember that Schueler, for all his willingness to be no sterner than necessary and his willingness to try and keep the Church free of corruption, was still Chihiro's most prominent ally and the person who figured out Pei Kau-yung's troops were up to something. Don't forget that he was probably the one who betrayed Cody's trust and who killed him. And don't forget that for all the Church's initial support of the Order of Saint Khody, they did eventually order its disbandment and ultimate destruction if its members refused to comply and order the purging of the testimonies of any and all mention of Cody Cortazar. So if anyone is on that memory module, it would be Schueler himself.

I also think that despite their victory over the Fallen, the "Archangels" still had to worry that they missed someone among the Fallen or worse, some industrial module, and that they were biding their time until all the command crew died out to strike out. They would have to have some sort of contingency plan for such an eventuality. That I think is the reason the Book of Chihiro mentions that the reappearance of "demons" will be met by a divine response. I also think that they were thinking in terms of no more than a few decades, since we know any cryo stasis system the Fallen might have manufactured could only last 150 years at most (which would be pushing it according to HFAF). I seriously doubt Chihiro and Schieler could have contemplated that the opposition had a PICA hidden away in an underground cavern, one which would only wake up 900 local years later. So we need to think in terms of a potential hi-tech threat that could emerge within no more than 100 years.


But also remember that Chihiro's most prominent ally left his descendants a secret charge. The operative word being 'secret'. He also seems to have told them that they were his descendants. These seem to be hints that, while he was working with Chihiro, he had his own game plan. In fact, he sounds suspiciously like Duchairn, but seen from an outside PoV. For Duchairn, the reader could always see his inner turmoil.

It depends whether Schuler's first name has significance or not. Androcles is the guy facing the lions in the arena, ultimately saved because of a previous act of kindness.
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Re: Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]
Post by n7axw   » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:49 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:
thanatos wrote:I seriously doubt Schueler would have risked placing Cody's neural pattern on the memory module. Remember that Schueler, for all his willingness to be no sterner than necessary and his willingness to try and keep the Church free of corruption, was still Chihiro's most prominent ally and the person who figured out Pei Kau-yung's troops were up to something. Don't forget that he was probably the one who betrayed Cody's trust and who killed him. And don't forget that for all the Church's initial support of the Order of Saint Khody, they did eventually order its disbandment and ultimate destruction if its members refused to comply and order the purging of the testimonies of any and all mention of Cody Cortazar. So if anyone is on that memory module, it would be Schueler himself.

I also think that despite their victory over the Fallen, the "Archangels" still had to worry that they missed someone among the Fallen or worse, some industrial module, and that they were biding their time until all the command crew died out to strike out. They would have to have some sort of contingency plan for such an eventuality. That I think is the reason the Book of Chihiro mentions that the reappearance of "demons" will be met by a divine response. I also think that they were thinking in terms of no more than a few decades, since we know any cryo stasis system the Fallen might have manufactured could only last 150 years at most (which would be pushing it according to HFAF). I seriously doubt Chihiro and Schieler could have contemplated that the opposition had a PICA hidden away in an underground cavern, one which would only wake up 900 local years later. So we need to think in terms of a potential hi-tech threat that could emerge within no more than 100 years.


But also remember that Chihiro's most prominent ally left his descendants a secret charge. The operative word being 'secret'. He also seems to have told them that they were his descendants. These seem to be hints that, while he was working with Chihiro, he had his own game plan. In fact, he sounds suspiciously like Duchairn, but seen from an outside PoV. For Duchairn, the reader could always see his inner turmoil.

It depends whether Schuler's first name has significance or not. Androcles is the guy facing the lions in the arena, ultimately saved because of a previous act of kindness.


It all depends on which Schuler is the real one: the Schuler of the book who bears his name or the Schuler whose holo inspired Father Paityr's family... Would the real Schuler stand up and be identified please?? And, oh, we have a testament of Schuler coming in which will give us a third choice.... Oh, joy...

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]
Post by thanatos   » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:05 pm

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n7axw wrote:
It all depends on which Schuler is the real one: the Schuler of the book who bears his name or the Schuler whose holo inspired Father Paityr's family... Would the real Schuler stand up and be identified please?? And, oh, we have a testament of Schuler coming in which will give us a third choice.... Oh, joy...

Don

-


Which may or may not be a contrivance of the Inner Circle as a way to undermine Schueler's position in the hearts of the faithful. Nor need it be an untruthful testament - The Inner Circle could put together what few recording they have of Schueler expressing himself all too bluntly.

But I still cannot believe that Schueler would take such an insane risk as to put the mind of someone like Cody Cortazar in that memory module. If he and the Church as a whole was willing not only to kill Cody but to erase the very memory of his existence (to the point of murdering everyone in the original Abbey of St. Kohdy with a Rakurai strike), how could he justify the risk of exposing the lie of the faith they created, even 1,000 years later?

Moreover, RFC has noted that the command crew suffered from a general sense of hopelessness and serious mental issues as a result of the endless and hopeless war against the Gbaba. They firmly believed that what they were doing was mankind's only hope of survival and that justified whatever action they took to uphold Langhorne's vision. So even if Schueler suffered from some sort attack of conscience over killing Cody, he might still look for a way to atone that did not hurt the overall plan (like say, charging his descendants to ensure that the Church remained free of corruption). And that ignores the fact that they would need to subdue Cody and then copy his neural pattern and store it (and only then kill him).
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Re: Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]
Post by n7axw   » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:38 am

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thanatos wrote:
n7axw wrote:
It all depends on which Schuler is the real one: the Schuler of the book who bears his name or the Schuler whose holo inspired Father Paityr's family... Would the real Schuler stand up and be identified please?? And, oh, we have a testament of Schuler coming in which will give us a third choice.... Oh, joy...

Don

-


Which may or may not be a contrivance of the Inner Circle as a way to undermine Schueler's position in the hearts of the faithful. Nor need it be an untruthful testament - The Inner Circle could put together what few recording they have of Schueler expressing himself all too bluntly.

But I still cannot believe that Schueler would take such an insane risk as to put the mind of someone like Cody Cortazar in that memory module. If he and the Church as a whole was willing not only to kill Cody but to erase the very memory of his existence (to the point of murdering everyone in the original Abbey of St. Kohdy with a Rakurai strike), how could he justify the risk of exposing the lie of the faith they created, even 1,000 years later?

Moreover, RFC has noted that the command crew suffered from a general sense of hopelessness and serious mental issues as a result of the endless and hopeless war against the Gbaba. They firmly believed that what they were doing was mankind's only hope of survival and that justified whatever action they took to uphold Langhorne's vision. So even if Schueler suffered from some sort attack of conscience over killing Cody, he might still look for a way to atone that did not hurt the overall plan (like say, charging his descendants to ensure that the Church remained free of corruption). And that ignores the fact that they would need to subdue Cody and then copy his neural pattern and store it (and only then kill him).


An interesting conjecture. But it's a bit thin. Really no way to establish whether or not this is true...at least until the next book!

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]
Post by schoeffelk   » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:09 am

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Interesting thoughts. Schuler was changing as the War with the Fallen went on. Cody may never have made it to the meeting with him, being detained by Chihiro. Chihiro not trusting Schuler's loyalty at that point began plotting against Schuler and his remaining allies among the Faithful.

Schuler realizing this, downloads his 'current' personality into the Key. Chihiro removes Schuler and his allies, then reinvents Schuler in the revised Book. Chihiro downloads his personality or 'modifies' Schuler's personality that was perviously stored.

The War of the Fallen could be refought via virtual personalities of Schuler 1 vs Schuler 2 or Schuler vs Chihiro.
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Re: Crazy Theory [Spoilers For Whole Series]
Post by thanatos   » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:48 am

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schoeffelk wrote:Interesting thoughts. Schuler was changing as the War with the Fallen went on. Cody may never have made it to the meeting with him, being detained by Chihiro. Chihiro not trusting Schuler's loyalty at that point began plotting against Schuler and his remaining allies among the Faithful.

Schuler realizing this, downloads his 'current' personality into the Key. Chihiro removes Schuler and his allies, then reinvents Schuler in the revised Book. Chihiro downloads his personality or 'modifies' Schuler's personality that was perviously stored.

The War of the Fallen could be refought via virtual personalities of Schuler 1 vs Schuler 2 or Schuler vs Chihiro.


Or it could have been the other way around. Schueler could have been the stern but fair character to begin with, but as the War Against the Fallen worsened for the "Archangels" (as noted in Cody's diary), he may have been willing to embrace one expedient after another in order to achieve victory. I also seriously doubt that Cody was the only Seijin who suffered from flashes of his old life (as per Nimue's and Merlin's comments during the discussion regarding the translated portions of the diary), which means some of the others might have been "erased" in their entirety. The only reason the memory of Cody persisted is because of his prominence during that war. But Schueler could have felt that Cody had become a liability and had him eliminated (again, in the name of expedience in time of war). Moreover, the diary indicates that Cody had a personal relationship with Schueler and was suspicious of Chihiro. Your newest wrinkle would require Chihiro to be himself suspicious of Cody ultimate reliability and intercept him as that particular moment, when he was ready to ask Schueler for reassurances (rather than at any moment before that in whatever previous meetings Cody had with them). Also, what possible utility could there be to placing a mortal "Seijin" mind in the memory module that wouldn't better be served by having the mind of an archangel in there instead?

Again, given the paranoia of Lannghorne, Chihiro and Schueler, as exemplified by the OBS and the platforms that protect it from examination and attack, I still firmly believe that Chihiro and Schueler would still need to take into consideration the possibility that missed some of the Fallen and any remaining technology. They would have to have some sort of fail safe for such an eventuality, which is why they made the Key. Yet I also think that Chihiro and Schueler were only thinking in terms of a threat that could emerge a few years or a few decades at most after their "departure in glory". Jeremiah Knowles comments that Pei Shan-wei's backup plans remained unknown to the "Archangels" after Pei Kau-yung blew up the original temple (probably because they lost a lot most of they records along with Langhorne and Bedard). Had they known, Knowles and his family would have been snapped up and either killed or reprogrammed. If they had no idea about the NEATs that Shan-wei used to reprogram them, they had no clue about Nimue Alban's PICA in the cave.
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