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Market Distribution

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Market Distribution
Post by Keith_w   » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:06 am

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I don't want a visualization because I already have it visualized in my mind and don't want to see anyone else's. I don't mind seeing a movie/tv show before I read the book, but never after. I started to watch "Legend of the Seeker" and was very disappointed in it, but loved the source - "Wizard's first rule". OTOH, it got 93% audience liked it on rotten tomatoes. I watched Game of Thrones before I read the book,so that was OK, but after I read the others, it was "That wasn't in the book" or "Where did that come from". So no, I dpn't want to see a film or TV show about Safehold.
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Re: Market Distribution
Post by The E   » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:41 am

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Moorningstaar wrote:1) I've mentioned Game of Thrones a few times for specific reason. This show primarily deals with politics of the worst kind. I'd say that pretty much defines the group of four's antics. So we could infer that this aspect would appeal to the majority of GOT viewers. But conversely this series also shows us the flipside of that dynamic in the court of Charis and all the true statesmen attempting to stop them. This would draw every person who quit watching GOT because they were tired of nothing but betrayal and corruption and all their heroes dying. And as big as GOT is all but two of my friends quit watching long ago due to these complaints.


Counterpoint: The political aspects of Safehold are utterly boring. Charisians and their allies are all good people with no flaws and never encounter a problem that isn't almost instantly solved by their access to crushingly superior intelligence on their opponents. Over the course of the series, the protagonists are always in a position where they have time to observe their antagonists and plan their responses; A series like GoT (or other political shows like House of Cards) derive a lot of their dramatic tension through the expedient of giving the viewer more information than what the characters in the show have.

Furthermore, Clyntahn and his allies are almost comically evil. They aren't interesting, there's no point in the whole story where it isn't absolutely clear that they are completely wrong about everything they do. The only people that approach likability amongst all of Charisians enemies are Thirsk and Alvahrez

So yeah, you would have a more "wholesome" show, one with very clear-cut protagonists and antagonists, but I would submit to you that that kind of stark black-and-white setup is perhaps not conducive to getting the kind of massive engagement GoT has been able to get.

2) Americans love big battles. When we look at the most successful movies for the last few decades one thing is clear. Nearly all of them involve massive fight scenes and large explosions. I won't get side tracked into what this says to me about the mental health of America but it is true. Many truly wonderful explorations into the nature of humanity (Driven, Amazing Spiderman 2, etc.) seem to fall by the wayside in favor of action. While this series is not action packed it does have enough large battle sequences to draw that audience.


And the large battles in Safehold are pretty boring as well. Charis has such crushing technological, philosophical and intelligence advantages at every turn that the eventual outcome of a given battle is never much in doubt.

3) I refer you to Arthur C Clarke's words of wisdom 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'. Why? Because in my view this series very effectively bridges the gap between SF and Fantasy. Those more inclined to Fantasy would intellectually understand that Merlin was a product of technology, but deep down he'd be a magic warrior/fighter much as the other characters refer to him. And speaking as one who has friends who prefer Fantasy (when they aren't reading/watching anime) I can tell you that they love this aspect of the story. And lets not forget that the setting is a low tech society which also more accurately emulates a feeling of fantasy, whatever we may know this series to be. In other words (and simplifying it as much as possible) this series could easily draw Trekkies and Fan Boys alike. No small audience there.


No, it can't. Safehold is SF throughout, and I would say that it's not even particularly good SF at that. The series is all about inducing a technological singularity similar to the industrialization period here on Earth, except in a massively accelerated timeframe: Charis goes from Triremes and Galleons to pre-Dreadnought steam battleships over the course of less than a decade, and somehow this sort of acceleration is so smooth that Charis' culture is not materially affected by it (or by its merging with neighbouring countries). It all goes so smoothly that it beggars belief; there is (just as in the political or military aspects above) little to no drama here that would make for enticing viewing or even some sort of commentary on our real-life situations or history.

4) This series would interest anyone who had any proclivity towards building things. I refer you to the number of minecraft players.


This is... flimsy. Minecraft players like building things, sure, but this isn't what this series is about.
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Re: Market Distribution
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:33 am

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Counterpoint: The political aspects of Safehold are utterly boring. Charisians and their allies are all good people with no flaws and never encounter a problem that isn't almost instantly solved by their access to crushingly superior intelligence on their opponents. Over the course of the series, the protagonists are always in a position where they have time to observe their antagonists and plan their responses; A series like GoT (or other political shows like House of Cards) derive a lot of their dramatic tension through the expedient of giving the viewer more information than what the characters in the show have.


With that, I agree completely.
------------------------
If power's on your shopping list
Then use the elbow and the fist,
Pummel 'em until they get the gist
Just make an example of
Representative sample of
And most of them will not be missed! (c)
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Re: Market Distribution
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:19 am

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I understand that GoT is an example of the maxim 'sex sells'. There really is hardly any sex in the Safehold books, and what there is gets very little prominence. Ditto there is hardly any love interest in the books, at least not with the prominence to be a big draw. Arranged marriages tend to have that problem. Have you weighed your Safehold collection? Those are BIG books, you are going to have to cut huge amounts of story to get any realistic length of mini series, it's not going to be remotely the same product when you have finished. Some of the interest in the story is the struggle between the two views of religion and religious experience. I think that is going to be very hard to portray appealingly on screen.

So I guess I'm saying I think a mini series wouldn't be a good idea because I don't see how it could work well.

Also, selfishly, I want RFC to spend his time writing new books not supervising a miniseries. The point about 'an approach only takes 5 minutes', is true, but it becomes a huge time soak as soon as Netflix actually get interested - If RFC gets to have reasonable editorial input. If you doubt that, go and read the posts about the potential (now cancelled) Honorverse films and see how much input DW needed to give to that.
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Re: Market Distribution
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:57 am

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Randomiser wrote:I understand that GoT is an example of the maxim 'sex sells'. There really is hardly any sex in the Safehold books, and what there is gets very little prominence. Ditto there is hardly any love interest in the books, at least not with the prominence to be a big draw. Arranged marriages tend to have that problem. Have you weighed your Safehold collection? Those are BIG books, you are going to have to cut huge amounts of story to get any realistic length of mini series, it's not going to be remotely the same product when you have finished. Some of the interest in the story is the struggle between the two views of religion and religious experience. I think that is going to be very hard to portray appealingly on screen.

So I guess I'm saying I think a mini series wouldn't be a good idea because I don't see how it could work well.

Also, selfishly, I want RFC to spend his time writing new books not supervising a miniseries. The point about 'an approach only takes 5 minutes', is true, but it becomes a huge time soak as soon as Netflix actually get interested - If RFC gets to have reasonable editorial input. If you doubt that, go and read the posts about the potential (now cancelled) Honorverse films and see how much input DW needed to give to that.


Well, the anime series might work...
------------------------
If power's on your shopping list
Then use the elbow and the fist,
Pummel 'em until they get the gist
Just make an example of
Representative sample of
And most of them will not be missed! (c)
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Re: Market Distribution
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:21 am

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Randomiser wrote:I understand that GoT is an example of the maxim 'sex sells'. There really is hardly any sex in the Safehold books, and what there is gets very little prominence. Ditto there is hardly any love interest in the books, at least not with the prominence to be a big draw. Arranged marriages tend to have that problem. Have you weighed your Safehold collection? Those are BIG books, you are going to have to cut huge amounts of story to get any realistic length of mini series, it's not going to be remotely the same product when you have finished. Some of the interest in the story is the struggle between the two views of religion and religious experience. I think that is going to be very hard to portray appealingly on screen.

So I guess I'm saying I think a mini series wouldn't be a good idea because I don't see how it could work well.

Also, selfishly, I want RFC to spend his time writing new books not supervising a miniseries. The point about 'an approach only takes 5 minutes', is true, but it becomes a huge time soak as soon as Netflix actually get interested - If RFC gets to have reasonable editorial input. If you doubt that, go and read the posts about the potential (now cancelled) Honorverse films and see how much input DW needed to give to that.


An excellent point about the religious side of the struggle. How many in the US or the Islamic world would see such a series as an attack on their religious beliefs? Does Netflix, or any one else, want that sort of grief?
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A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Market Distribution
Post by The E   » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:51 am

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Keith_w wrote:An excellent point about the religious side of the struggle. How many in the US or the Islamic world would see such a series as an attack on their religious beliefs? Does Netflix, or any one else, want that sort of grief?


Safehold is only an attack on your religious sensibilities if they include a non-zero amount of atrocity-worship (in which case, well, your sensibilities are bad and you should feel bad).
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Re: Market Distribution
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:31 am

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The E wrote:
Keith_w wrote:An excellent point about the religious side of the struggle. How many in the US or the Islamic world would see such a series as an attack on their religious beliefs? Does Netflix, or any one else, want that sort of grief?


Safehold is only an attack on your religious sensibilities if they include a non-zero amount of atrocity-worship (in which case, well, your sensibilities are bad and you should feel bad).

You are dreaming. The religious fundamentalists (of all ilks) will view any negative portrayal of religion as a veiled attack on their beliefs.
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Re: Market Distribution
Post by The E   » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:55 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:You are dreaming. The religious fundamentalists (of all ilks) will view any negative portrayal of religion as a veiled attack on their beliefs.


In order to be offended by Safehold, one would have to be the kind of person who is offended at literally everything even the slightest bit critical of religion. Over and over again, the books feature characters who, upon discovering the truth of the Church of God Awaiting, decide that their faith is still perfectly valid, it's just those damn [s]papists[/s]vicars who are morally corrupt. If that's a scenario a significant number of first-world people are offended by, I would be very much surprised. I do not doubt those people exist, but they are definitely not the target audience for works like Safehold, no matter which medium it is being presented in.
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Re: Market Distribution
Post by Randomiser   » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:18 am

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The E wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:You are dreaming. The religious fundamentalists (of all ilks) will view any negative portrayal of religion as a veiled attack on their beliefs.


In order to be offended by Safehold, one would have to be the kind of person who is offended at literally everything even the slightest bit critical of religion. Over and over again, the books feature characters who, upon discovering the truth of the Church of God Awaiting, decide that their faith is still perfectly valid, it's just those damn [s]papists[/s]vicars who are morally corrupt. If that's a scenario a significant number of first-world people are offended by, I would be very much surprised. I do not doubt those people exist, but they are definitely not the target audience for works like Safehold, no matter which medium it is being presented in.


Well, your 'papists' comment hits it on the head. The Religious side of the series shares very significant themes with the protestant Reformation, as seen from the Protestant side. I could imagine a number of conservative Roman Catholics might not be too pleased by what could be seen as criticism of their church. (OK, I know there are a number of RC fans here, but it's a big church.)

But my point was actually more that TV is not a good medium for portraying that kind of, often internal, struggle of ideas, rather than that it would be seriously offensive. I suspect it's more likely to be a turn off for the majority of viewers, more's the pity.
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